to Coast / Art Bell
(Dec 27, 2002)
ART BELL: Well this is an interview that during
the course of my career I'm really quite surprised I've never
done before. Its almost "odd" that I've never done it fortuitous
that I'm about to. I saw, like everybody else, the movie The
Amityville Horror, and isn't it odd that the man involved
in that happens to be just over the hill from me in Las Vegas.
George Lee Lutz was born and raised on Long Island. If his birth
was any indication, he was meant to be different from the beginning.
Seconds after delivery, doctors raced him into surgery and mended
a large crack in his skull one that should have killed
him. His mother often said that she thought his miraculous recovery
was a sign that he was destined for something special.
At a very young age, George displayed a remarkable mechanical
aptitude. At the age of 12 he modified a hobby kit hydroplane
adding his own custom-designed waterski jets. That was only the
beginning of a lasting love for boats, canoes, rowboats, sailboats,
almost anything that'd float on the water.
Later the fascination grew to include cars, and today George can
remember the color, interior design, make, model of every car
he's ever owned. At 19 he volunteered for the Marines. My parents
were Marines. So he volunteered, huh? And later went on to earn
two degrees with honors at an FAA course that led him to a job
in Boston as an air traffic controller. One of the high-stress
jobs in the world.
His father's death a short time later took him back to New York
to run WH Parry, Inc, the family's land-surveying business. George,
who was born and raised Methodist who always considered himself
more of a devout realist married for the first time in '72.
Divorced in '73. Short marriage.
During the process of his annulment from his first marriage, George
met Father Ralph J Pecararo ... a Catholic priest and ecclesiastical
judge within the archdiocese of the church, with whom he quickly
forged a strong and lasting friendship.
In 1974, after years of profitable business management and years
of enthusiasm and training in the martial arts, George met Kathy
Connors, who had three children from a previous marriage. A year
after George & Kathy's first date, they were married, and soon
they began searching for a house of their own. A nest, right?
By the Summer of '75 they thought they had found their dream home,
which happened to turn out to be a 22 story Dutch Colonial in
the quaint Long Island community of Amityville. Little did they
know that a legend was about to be born. In a moment, the truth,
the real truth, behind that legend.
BELL: Alright, here from Las Vegas, Nevada just over
the hill is George Lutz. George, welcome.
ART BELL: Hey, welcome to the program.
ART BELL: God, its great to have you. George,
you're not on a... what kind of phone are you on now?
I'm on a hard line.
ART BELL: Oh, you're on a hard line. Okay, good.
We got a bit of static tonight.
ART BELL: Yeah, I hear that. I hear that. I hope
that doesn't get us. Alright, what are you doing in Las Vegas,
by the way?
Right now I'm repairing computers and restoring old cars.
ART BELL: Uh huh. Old cars your love.
Its what I enjoy the most, but I have what's called fibromyalgia,
so there are times when I just can't do the work.
ART BELL: I understand. Well, alright, George
maybe we'll investigate the possibility of another line or another
telephone. It was good. I wonder what happened.
I'm not sure.
ART BELL: Yeah, that's odd. There's no other
phone line open, is there?
No, not in this house.
ART BELL: Alright, let me try this, and reset
this and see if that helps. Alright, anyway, George its hard
to even know where to start, except all my life, you know, I saw
the movie, and all my life I've been hearing about Amityville;
and in fact, a man that I interviewed, who has now passed away,
of course Father Malachi Martin said to me in the course of
an interview that the Amityville house was one of the most haunted
places in all of America.
This is a live interview you did with him?
ART BELL: It certainly was. Yes.
So I assume hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people heard
ART BELL: Oh, absolutely. Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
Of course. So I'm not sure where to begin all of this with you,
except, I guess, you know, in the bio there it said that you and
Kathy had just married and you were looking for a brand new house
to live in and its the nesting thing. You know, you get married,
you get a family and you wanna go and you wanna find a place,
you know, to have that family. And that's what you were doing.
Well we both had homes. We each had our own home.
ART BELL: Oh!
So the idea was to sell both homes and get one that we could look
at as both of ours.
ART BELL: That's right. Something new and something
that belonged to both of you.
I'm not sure if Kathy liked my house or I liked her's, either.
So it was one of those "let's go find something we both like."
ART BELL: Yep. Makes sense.
And she had three children. And so it really made sense to put
them both up on the market and then whichever one sold first,
move into the other one and then as soon as that was sold, hopefully
we would have found another house by then. And it did work out
ART BELL: Yeah. Do you remember how old the children
were at the time? Roughly?
I believe Missy was not in kindergarten yet, so she would have
been, like, four. And then Chris and Danny would have been, oh,
seven and nine, I believe. I'm sorry, its too long since I've
tried to remember those things.
ART BELL: Yeah, a long time ago. Well you're
gonna be trying to remember a lot that's been now a long time
Hopefully I'll do better.
ART BELL: And by the way, folks, George has a
cold, too. We both have colds, so bear with both of us. Its tough
to think clearly its tough to do anything when you're in the
middle of one of these monsters. How we've gone to the moon and
now all this other stuff, now even cloned the first human according
to [unintelligible], and we still can't cure the common cold,
George. Doesn't make sense to me.
That's pretty amazing.
ART BELL: Yep. Alright, so you went to look at
the house at 112 Ocean Avenue in Amityville. All of you, I presume,
or just you and Kathy...
No, all of us.
ART BELL: All, even the children, huh?
Yes, and we had a criteria about what we were trying to find a
home on the water, because I had a boat then that wasn't trailerable,
really, and it was important to have the boat close by rather
than travel back and forth to it, since we tried to use it as
much as we could.
ART BELL: Okay, well you knew I presume you
knew about the DeFeo massacre. That six people had been murdered
in that house. I mean that's a very serious thing to have occurred.
We didn't know this when we first went to see the house. We knew
it after the realtor told us, after we had toured the house.
ART BELL: It was a pretty good price, right?
Uh, the market it had been on the market for, I believe, a hundred
thousand or so, and by then it had been reduced to, if I remember
correctly, to 90. We made an offer of 80 and they accepted it.
ART BELL: Really? George, what do you think market
value was for that house then? Real market value.
Well the house was 4,000 feet. It had a boathouse that would take
in easily a 36-foot boat at the time, it had a 2-car garage attached
to that, a heated pool, a full basement... My guess would be then,
realistically, $125,000 would have been not unheard of.
ART BELL: Alright, then, so at some point you
must have asked yourself, or the realtor, hey, how come maybe
after you've consummated the deal how come its so cheap? Or
when did you find out six people had been murdered there?
After she showed it to us, and it was obvious that Kathy had fallen
in love with it, and I liked it very much she said, "I don't
know if I should have told you this before I showed it to you
or after, but this is the house the DeFeos were murdered in."
And we kinda looked at her like, "What do you mean?" And then
she reminded us of the news stories that had been a year earlier,
and the trial that was just, I guess, in the process of starting,
or was going on.
ART BELL: Alright, for those who don't remember,
can you tell us about the DeFeo murders? I mean this DeFeo fellow
said that he I think at the time he claimed that he heard voices
telling him to kill his family, right?
Ronald DeFeo was eventually convicted, yes, of killing his mom,
dad, two brothers and two sisters.
ART BELL: And for that he is serving what?
And while they weren't asleep while they were asleep.
ART BELL: Went around with a shotgun and dispatched
them, I think?
It was a Marlin 36 caliber rifle.
ART BELL: Yeah, okay, and he's now serving, I
think, six life...
GEORGE LUTZ: Consecutive life terms supposedly
with no possibility for parole, but a hearing comes up every year
ART BELL: I imagine the house had been cleaned
up there was no sign of the massacre that occurred there.
GEORGE LUTZ: Oh no, no, no nothing like that.
The house showed like any house would.
ART BELL: And George, you're looking at it, you're
looking at the water thinking, "Oh my God, yes." Right?
Oh yeah. We weren't looking for an $80,000 or $90,000 or $100,000
house, but we were certainly in the 60-70 thousand dollar range.
When we considered we had two homes that sold for over $40,000
each. And just the fees on keeping our boat in a marina back then
really made the difference very well as far as the money went.
And I had a successful business that had
been my grandfather's and my father's, so it wasn't something
that well, we went I'll put it this way we went to one bank,
got qualified there and got the mortgage right away. Didn't have
to go around and shop for a mortgage or apply anywhere else.
ART BELL: That's interesting.
We had we walked in with a little over $20,000 down, so we ended
up with a $60,000 mortgage.
ART BELL: Did the family you must have sat
down with the family, you know a family conference at some point,
and said, " Look, this horrible thing happened here, can you handle
that fact? Do you love the house? Do you still want to move in?"
Oh sure. We asked the kids, Art, if this was gonna bother them.
Because if it was going to be an issue with them, then we would
have certainly walked on considering the house. They were all
fine with it.
ART BELL: Was there anything at that point
I mean none of the children, nor Kathy, nor anybody said, "Look,
what if its haunted," or anything like that. I mean that never
really ever entered your psyche, or did you even consider that?
Not considered in that way, no.
ART BELL: No.
It was, you know, look, you're gonna have the same bedrooms that
these kids had when they were killed here. Is that gonna be a
problem? You know, that kind of thing. We asked them, and we talked
about it at length as a family. It wasn't a snap decision by any
means. We went back and saw the house a number of times. One time
Kathy and I even went down in my boat to see it from the water
see if we could find it. South Shore isn't always the easiest
thing to get up into little rivers and whatever and find a house
ART BELL: Did you and Kathy have enough from
your other from the sale of your other houses to afford the
$20,000, the downpayment?
Oh yeah. Sure.
ART BELL: Okay. Are you a religious person, George?
That means something different to everybody. Back then I think
absolutely not. I believed in the Lord's Prayer, that kind of
thing. I was a non-practicing Methodist. But today what I believe
is, my own personal beliefs, and there are some things that I
believe are pretty unshakable, and have been proven to be so over
the last 25 years.
ART BELL: And Kathy?
Very. I would consider Kathy very religious. Kathy has a ministry
that feeds thousands of people in Phoenix every year homeless
ART BELL: Then you met this, and you're going
to have to help me with his name Father Ralph, is it Pecararo?
Father Ralph Pecararo.
ART BELL: Pecararo, okay. When did you come in
contact with him, and under what circumstance?
He was an ecclesiastical judge. He sat in the diocesan office
for the Catholic Church in Rockville Centre as a judge, ruling
on various cases that came subject to Church law, for the Catholic
Church. My first wife that had, she had applied for an annulment
meant that I had the opportunity to go in and be interviewed,
if I wished, about that annulment process. And I didn't understand
it at the time, and so I went down and met with him. He called
me and invited me in to do that. I really didn't think it was
a necessary thing, I really didn't care if she got an annulment
or not. I wasn't really sure that an annulment was proper, but
end result is that's how I met him.
ART BELL: Okay, what kind of man was he?
ART BELL: In what sense?
He read and spoke 9 languages, had an equivalent law degree from
Oxford. He met you on your terms, you didn't have to go to him.
He was friendly and smart and he took his time to explain things
to me why it was important that this annulment be granted, and
what were the conditions the Church considered it to be properly
so. But more than that, he I didn't realize at the time that
there was something unusual about him in the sense that he was
an ecclesiastical judge I just figured that was his job. I realized
the kinds of degrees he had, or the intellect involved in doing
such a job, or how you get to do that.
ART BELL: So I guess you all became fast friends
through this process.
We came through it as good friends, and talked on the phone maybe
once every ten days, seven days sometimes two weeks but it
was always gonna be, he was gonna come to dinner, meet Kathy and
the kids, that kind of thing.
ART BELL: Alright, he ended up anyway you became
friends and he ended up blessing this house, right?
Yeah, and I should tell you how that came about.
ART BELL: I'd like to know how that came about,
One of my hobbies was building Harleys then, and a friend of mine,
Jimmy Loscaizo in New York had a Harley shop in East Northport
in New York, and Jimmy, when I told him what house we were buying,
the DeFeo house, he said, "You've got to get the house blessed."
And I said, "What are you talking about?" And he said, "You've
got to get a priest and get the house blessed." And I went home
from that and asked Kathy about that, and she said, "Oh yeah,
that's something you do if you're a Catholic and you buy a new
house, you do that."
ART BELL: And especially in this case.
And we didn't know any priests. So Kathy was a non-practicing
Catholic at the time, and so I called Father Ray and asked him
if he would do it, and he said yeah, sure, I'd be glad to. Little
did I realize that wasn't the kind of thing that an...
ART BELL: This was, this was after you moved-in,
No, this is before we actually closed on the house. Its one of
those things you do supposedly as soon as you can when you buy
it. So it was coordinated that he would come in the day that we
actually had the closing. That afternoon.
ART BELL: Gotcha.
So we were moving-in when he showed up to do that.
ART BELL: And, so, boom boom boom, here he comes
and begins, what, moving through the house to bless it? I don't
know how that's done.
Well I hadn't actually even seen him arrive, and I hadn't seen
him since I had seen him in his office, that I recall now, when
I think back about it, it is the first time I'd seen him in months.
I talked to him quite a bit, but always on the phone.
So there he is going into the house, and I waved. I was in the
back of the truck unloading the U-Haul, and a number of our friends,
even one of Jimmy's brothers was there helping unload the stuff
and moving it into house. Moving day. We were a little bit behind
because after we had closed on the finances in New York you
do real estate a different way than you do out here you go to
a closing and they have their attorney and the bank has an attorney
or a representative and you have your own attorney, and they all
sit there and they write everything up right down there. And the
title company has someone. Its a different process than it is
anywhere else that I've seen.
Well we had forgotten to get the key at the closing, so we had
to go back and find the realtor and go back, get the key so we
could actually get in the house. And there are all these people
waiting around to help us move-in.
So he showed up and we were quite behind time. It was starting
to get dark it's November. And so I waved at him and he went
on in, found Kathy and went about blessing the house.
ART BELL: Which means, what? You go from room
to room? That kind of thing?
Yes, he went room to room, said prayers in each room using holy
water and I guess there's a house blessing that they do. I'm not
privy to the words.
ART BELL: Nor am I. But very interesting. Alright,
BELL: Ghosts, or the presence of evil, seems most frequently
to show up at places where great evil has been done, like the
DeFeo murders, for example. Six family members murdered, slaughtered.
That's one. There are other occasions, but that's probably the
most frequent, with the regard to hauntings. Something evil around.
No question about it. So the setup was there.
BELL: George, okay. So, I guess we'll call him "Father
ART BELL: Blessed the house, went room to room,
blessed the house; and then came back and told you what?
He was a bit uncomfortable in the upstairs back bedroom. I wanted
to pay him for coming he wouldn't accept payment. I tried to
give him a bottle of Canadian Club he wouldn't take that. We
invited him back for dinner. He stopped and just said he asked
us what we were going to use one bedroom for, which was on the
second floor in the back; and that was evidently the bedroom where
the two boys had been murdered.
ART BELL: So he told you not to use the second
floor sewing room-- I've got a little echo, let me try to get
rid of that. He told you not to use the second floor sewing room
at ALL, or as a bedroom, or what?
Kathy explained she was going to use it as a sewing room, and
that, he said, was fine. He just there was something about the
room that made him uncomfortable, and he managed to communicate
that to us without any alarm or anything. I really don't know
how to explain this other than he asked what we were going to
use the room for; he said he felt a little bit uncomfortable there,
and that's basically what he said.
ART BELL: And so you didn't really probe and
want to know the exact whys and wherefores of the warning?
No, he wasn't forthcoming with it; he was, um, it was like he
wanted to leave, and we weren't going to use it as a bedroom,
so it wasn't an issue. It was a strange thing for him to say,
but it was, like, okay, you have to leave and that's all you're
going to tell us, obviously, you know thanks for coming.
ART BELL: Goodnight and see you later?
Really. We invited him back another time, you know, to come back
for dinner; and he said he would, and that was it.
ART BELL: Alright, I've got
somebody else here who had impressions of the house, who's on
the line, I'd like to bring on. Mary Pascarella was the lead psychic
who investigated the house along with Ed & Lorraine Warren I've
interviewed them in March of '76. Mary is a professional psychic
and time walker, who picked up on some truly terrifying things
when she visited your home. She said the case had a profound effect
on her. It was the first time she had ever encountered something
she can only describe as "pure evil." Pure evil.
Art, I don't know that she's ever been interviewed about this.
ART BELL: Well she is going to be now. Mary welcome
to the program.
Well good evening, Lee, and how are you?
How are you?
ART BELL: Where are you, Mary?
I'm in Pennsylvania.
ART BELL: In Pennsylvania. So you've never been
interviewed in this fashion before about what happened?
No. We had strange arrangement with that. I'm very private about
things that I do, and it was just something that I wasn't comfortable
ART BELL: You are private, because I'm pretty
familiar in this field, Mary, and I'm not familiar with you. So
you obviously are very private. Anyway, you went into the house
at the behest of Ed & Lorraine Warren I've interviewed them.
And what happened? Can you, in your own words what happened?
We went in at a time when the North Carolina team was out there
from Duke. And I had not met Lee. When I go any place I always
say, "Don't tell me anything about the house," and Ed called me
one night and said, "I have a case I'd like you to investigate,
and what is your impression?" And I said, "I see a white house
with a fan window," and he said, "Okay, don't say anything else
and we'll get in the car and go."
And when we arrived there it was there was a team there and
we could not go in and they went up and got pizza, and I stayed
in the car. Then I walked out to the back of the house, because
I like to get feelings of things. And when I got into the back
I had heard water. And so I saw a pool, and I thought, "Well,
that's it there's the pool, there's the water," and discharged
that. But while I was in back there, I usually say I'm Catholic
and I usually say some prayers before I go into a house. That
was my quiet time. And I looked up into the window in the back
of the house and I saw the face of a young girl looking back out.
ART BELL: A young girl.
Right. And I had never I knew nothing of the DeFeos. I hadn't
met Lee I'm sorry, I meant George.
Either one works, Mary.
Well you're Lee to me. So I had not met the family, but because
children were involved and I'm a proverbial mother, I was only
interested in doing the house because there were children involved
in the house.
ART BELL: Of course.
So I looked up and I saw the face in the window. It later became
it was the Sewing Room, I believe, that was the upstairs window
ART BELL: That'd be the one Father Ray talked
Right. And at that time we hadn't been in the house. When you
enter this house, its very deceptive. When I first went into the
house, I said to Ed, "These people are really weird. We're not
even going to think about that this house was beautiful," and
the house was beautiful. The Lutzes had decorated the house so
you walked in and it was a beautiful home. And it gave you no
feeling, no sensation of anything other than a house. That comes
ART BELL: Alright, but at some point.
When I went upstairs to the first thing that we did when we
went in is, there's a dining room to the right-hand side, and
that had a table, that had dishes and things. Later we cleared
some of that. When you go there's a stairwell as you enter,
and then when you go down, there's another stairwell that goes
down to a basement area.
When you get into the basement area, there's a little laundry
room off to your right-hand side of the stairs. And then I looked
to the left and there was this large game room. And the game room
had a pool table and family things where a family would enjoy
ART BELL: Sure.
In front of you, there was a little door, and it went into a small,
like a cold cellar. You know, the old houses that had like a little
ART BELL: Oh yes.
Yeah. So you opened the door and you go into a root cellar. I
never could really go into that room because it had an odor to
it. Now, you have to understand that I was under the impression
that the house had nothing there. But I investigate the house
to see because I walk time to see what possibly could have
affected it to cause people to be affected by the house. So we
got to the laundry room had some clothes that were on the floor,
so I'm Mrs Clean by nature, and I picked up the clothes and I
threw them in and washed them, figuring maybe if there's an odor
there it might be in the clothing, themselves. Because it was
definitely like a "dirty socks" smell, or something had soiled.
ART BELL: A foul odor.
Yeah. Exactly. Just an odor. And I'm one of these people that
is very fussy and very clean, and if there's a smell, I'll either
find the source and as a psychic, if you say a refrigerator
is in the air, I'd better be able to put my hand under it, or
otherwise I'm not going to believe that there's a refrigerator
in the air. You know, you have to use logic.
ART BELL: Well I know that sock smell. My mom
told me my socks could march the way to the washer by themselves,
when I was about 13 or 12. It was awful.
Well, I tell you, the Lutzes were impeccably clean, and the house
was absolutely gorgeous. I mean what they lost, they'll never
be able to replace. That was for sure, afterwards. When you sit
down and the reality is, is that there's has to be something that
drove them away, because there was more truth in that house as
you got to know it.
ART BELL: Well I know the finances of all this,
and the people who say this is some kind of farce or hoax are
full of it, because the money thing doesn't add up in any way
you look at it, either before, during or after. None of it makes
any sense unless.
Oh no, because that house had had his possessions alone when
you walked in, you knew you were walking I thought they were
very affluent because they had collections of coins and things,
you know. He was a collector, obviously. But that's a moot point
ART BELL: What is important, though, and what
I want to get from you, is what you sensed, finally, in that house.
Okay. When you go up the stairs, from the first stair to the seventh
stair, there's a [sounds like "cotton batting"] feeling a feeling
of rapping. And its as though something terrible has happened
on that stairwell. And that was the first sense of something not
Going up the stairs to the sewing room, I walked in and I've been
blessed with an imagination, or a mind that can see time and
there was a young woman in there I'd say 15 or 16 with long
brown hair parted in the middle, and if you remember those little
ART BELL: Oh of course, yes.
They had the paisley things. And she was crying. And one of our
jobs has one of MY jobs is if you see something that's misplaced,
you try to place it back, so I started to say some prayers and
said "go to the white light," because I knew then, I thought that
was what the haunting was. And so I said, "Go to the white light,"
and at that point in time it was as though the house did not want
that soul released, and you started to feel pressures and anger.
And then when you walk out into the hallway, I felt that I had
given her the white light and she had gone. In my mind.
ART BELL: But there was evil real evil in
that house, Mary?
Absolutely. Absolutely. After the investigation there was a
I could never go to the third floor. When you walked down the
hall on the right hand side, there's a stairwell. Well, I'm not
allowed, sometimes, to do things, because I'm one of these people
that still believe in Bambi and the tooth fairy and things like
that, and so I'm not good with evil or bad things.
ART BELL: I don't think many of us have confronted
pure evil directly. Father Malachi Martin spoke of it many times,
and I still even the concept of evil as an entity, as a pure
thing, will stand the hair on the back of my neck straight up.
And I have a sense, but that's all. I've never confronted it directly
nor do I wish to.
Well neither have I. And I had a group of friends I worked for
the [unintelligible] in Bridgeport at that time, and I had a school
and I had four priest friends. And whenever I went anywhere
they always gave me holy water and I borrowed one of their Bibles
and a cross and brought it with me, just as a kind of a protection
for myself. Because you never know, if you don't people don't
understand that if there's good, there's evil.
ART BELL: Yep. I understand.
You just don't touch it as frequently. And because we're locked
in a clock time, we don't walk the perimeters.
The one thing I did know about that house was that it was not
the original house. I used to be an artist, and I can in my
mind blueprints will form, and I kinda sense when something's
real or not real. And the thing that I knew immediately, without
having met Lee, was that this was a man that was protecting his
children and his home. It had nothing I don't even think he
believed in us as psychic investigators. I mean, not truly. I
think his main concern was the money that he had invested in the
home and his children.
ART BELL: Of course. Yeah, that's the real world.
But bottom line, Mary, in your investigation, there was no question
in your mind, you had encountered in that house pure evil.
Pure evil. We had channel 5 that was doing a seance, and I was
to be the lead psychic in that. We had gotten to the point where
the house had began to affect me. And I had gotten up to the stairs
and I called down to Ed and I said, "Ed, I'm as sick as a dog."
Well I had this little room upstairs. I believe it was Missy's
And that was my haven. I could go there and feel perfectly safe.
Perfectly safe. And so I said to Ed, "I'm going to lay down in
the bed for a little while because I'm..." it was either that
I hadn't slept or whatever. And so I began to say my prayers,
and I was saying the Our Father. And I was saying the "Our Father,"
I looked out of the door and there was a young man that was with
me, taping; and I looked out of the door and as I was saying the
Our Father, there was a group of figures standing outside of the
door, saying the Our Father backward.
ART BELL: My God.
I thought, "Excuse me" that doesn't sit well with me. I'm also
a stubborn person that says, "Don't threaten me," because I'll
stand up and my fists go up...
ART BELL: Mary, is there any question in your
mind the DeFeo souls were trapped in that home?
I didn't know about the DeFeos at the time, but I did know...
ART BELL: I understand
I did know in one of the bedrooms I sensed a young man who was
crying as though he had done something really bad. So I knew two
things about this house. I knew 1: that someone was forced into
a position to commit something really horrible there. Didn't know
what it was, but I did know that it happened that there was
a force or an energy in that house that was subject to taking
hold of somebody.
And I will say this now, and I'll say it 'til the day I die, that
since we don't know what time is, and time in time is only a fraction
of a second, that the energy in that house remains. It may take
a hundred years of our time, but it will implode again. And that
house is purely evil.
I took the holy water and threw it outside to the figures, and
I took the cross and I raised the cross and I said, I said a prayer
and I said, "God is with me," and I threw it, and did you ever
throw water on a fire? And you get this kind of a little hissing
ART BELL: Yes.
Well that's what the sound was. And the kid that was with me,
I thought he was going to faint. But again, that's the house.
The house is deceptive. It will take an innocent person and
I believe Kathy was such a sweet and innocent child. A girl
a young woman and it affected the house. It affected curious
children. And Lee was the strength in that house, so the house
could never really affect him only make him angry and want to
find out what was the matter.
ART BELL: You're very well aware the investigators,
Mary, caught a photograph when there was no child in the home.
An eerie photograph that will stand the hair on the back of your
neck straight up up on the top of that stairwell caught a
photograph of a child when there was no photograph of any or
no child in there to be photographed. They got a photograph of
what appears to be a ghost child. I've got that on the website
right now www.artbell.com.
Is there any question in your mind that photograph is one of the
Lutz, or excuse me, not the Lutz, the DeFeo...
No. God forbid.
ART BELL: God forbid. Right. The DeFeo children?
I believe that since I was not allowed up on the third floor to
where the children were the boys, I believe, were that it
was probably one of those. And do I believe they were trapped?
Yes I do. I think the girl escaped into what may have been another
room of haven, and that what Father felt was the presence without
being able to be aware that there was a presence there. Us Catholics
are trained in a very different way.
ART BELL: And Mary, you believe that house is
going to, as you put it, implode again?
Absolutely. You get somebody that's very susceptible...
ART BELL: Mary, we're out of the thing you walk
time and I've got to go, but I want to thank you for calling-in,
and thank you so much.
Okay, and tell Lee I'm on and listening.
ART BELL: Alright. Mary Pascarella. George Lutz
is my guest. She walks time. That was some stroll she took in
BELL: George, welcome back to the program.
ART BELL: You have described what happened in
that house in Amityville, George, as, oh, I don't know, I guess
kind of a three-ring circus. Now, many, many in my audience have
either read the book or seen the movie, and the movie, of course,
dramatized the heck out of what happened, I suppose...
That's a really nice way to put that.
ART BELL: Is it?
It was very "Hollywood."
ART BELL: Very Hollywood. Alright, but what's
the real story, George? What really did happen there?
It didn't happen all at once. When I think back on it now I think
my perceptions of it are different then they were then. It seemed
at times, then, that it just was like a rolling snowball that
got bigger and bigger and bigger.
ART BELL: Well nobody, no family, pays that kind
of money for a house, lays their life on the line especially
a place they love and then flees a house, George. It doesn't
happen without some really serious stuff going on. Movie or no
movie nobody does that. Nobody flees a house without significant
reason. What really happened?
Well when we left the house, Art, I should tell you that we wanted
to get the house fixed. We really did not want to just leave or
leave our stuff or give up on living there.
ART BELL: Of course not.
And so when the opportunity came to put together the psychics
that went in and investigate the house, the idea was that they
would fix it.
ART BELL: Yeah, but there was obviously a lot
wrong to fix, and that's what I want to know about. I mean what
the hell happened in that house to even bring the psychics on...
What made us leave, in other words.
ART BELL: Well, or even to the point where the
psychics came in. I mean what began to happen in that house, George?
By the last week we were there, it was nightly occurrences of
noises. Things like odors coming and going, or Kathy being touched
from behind by some unseen person, or Missy talking to herself
and asking questions like telling us about her imaginary friend
that wasn't so imaginary, it turns out...
ART BELL: Yeah, she claimed to have an imaginary
Yes, and she would come and ask Kathy questions like, "Do angels
talk?" And Jodie is the name of the angel, and she Jodie is
telling Missy that we're going to live there forever.
ART BELL: Forever.
Strange things. Its kind of off-putting. Our dog, Harry, would
not go in that room that Mary was talking about earlier. The last
night we were in the house was the reason not to stay there anymore.
And when we called Father Ray the next day, he asked what we were
still doing there. He was surprised we were still even in the
house. And it hadn't even occurred to us that, even at that point,
to just up and abandon everything and get in the van and leave.
That night, Kathy had levitated and moved away, across, away from
me on the bed...
ART BELL: Now, now, now wait a minute. Slow
up right there.
GEORGE LUTZ: Sure.
ART BELL: Kathy levitated?
ART BELL: Now you were both in bed?
ART BELL: And you were both awake, or both asleep
at the time, or what?
Kathy was asleep.
ART BELL: She was asleep.
GEORGE LUTZ: And she lifted up off the bed and
went towards the wall, away from me.
ART BELL: Huh.
This is after she had turned into an old crone a really ugly
old woman that literally took hours and hours for it to go away.
ART BELL: In front of your face?
Yes. And then later she did that again at her Mom's house after
we moved out of the house and moved-in with her Mom.
ART BELL: Oh my God. You're sitting there watching
your wife, and she turns, like "The Picture of Dorian Gray," she
almost instantly becomes an old woman?
ART BELL: And then that effect remains for hours?
Remained, yeah one time it was longer than just a few hours.
What happened, Art, was that these things in and by themselves
for example I... Everyone in that house all my kids and Kathy
slept on their stomachs in that house. After we moved out, we
found out that the DeFeo murders all of, the whole family had
slept on their stomachs. They were all murdered in their sleep.
None of them got up. None of them got out of bed or were awakened,
evidently, by the sounds of the rifle going off, killing all six
of them. There were no drugs found in their bodies in the autopsy.
And they were all sleeping face-down. I was the only one who could
not sleep face down in that house. I never slept face-down before
that, and I certainly couldn't do that there.
ART BELL: Through all of this, George, did you
ever question you own sanity? I mean we don't often look at our
wives and see them become a 90-year-old woman instantly, and then
have that remain for hours. I mean we just don't. Did you question
your own sanity?
Sure. Many, many times in many different ways.
ART BELL: What about the effect on Kathy? Was
she questioning your sanity or her own, or were you beginning
to understand it was the house?
Kathy was damaged in a different each of us were affected in
a different way, and I think Kathy was damaged in a different
way than I was. And I think that for her, in so many ways, it
was much harder for her to recover over the years and be able
to put it in a place, so to speak, you know. Give it some distance.
Even after moving to California, and then later on to Arizona,
there were times when she was much more sensitive than I was.
ART BELL: Do you think she's alright with it
now? Has she come to terms now with it? Or is it still a bad word
When we did... We did a special for the History Channel two years
ago, and that interview was some eight hours, and she was hooked
up to oxygen she has a disorder known, a breathing disorder,
known as Valley Fever, that is quite serious, quite debilitating,
and right now she's still in a form of a hospital that deals with
ART BELL: Yeah, I saw the oxygen tubes.
Yeah. Well she's had a relapse since then. That was a very hard
day for her. The interview was I think something like 82, 8 hours,
and then afterwards we went out to dinner. So it was a long day
for her. And there were times when, you know, certain questions
would come up and be worded in a certain way that are really
you can see the effect on her, sure; but that happens to me as
well. Its not this is not a comfortable subject. Its not something
that has a lot of humor in it.
And humor is the one thing that does make it less strong less
affecting of you.
ART BELL: Yes, I understand that. I use it myself.
It is a wonderful tool to deal with this kind of thing.
ART BELL: The movie, of course, dramatized the
ooze out of the walls, and the flies, and all the rest of that...
The flies were real.
ART BELL: The flies were... Tell me about that.
The flies were... This is the winter time, and the back bedroom
that one Sewing Room had flies from the day we moved-in. And
they became more and more and more. And they were there when the
investigators went in. Just on the back window, and that's the
same window that Mary saw the, I guess you'd call it an apparition
or a person from the looking up at it. The flies were always
ART BELL: They were always there.
They didn't go away. You'd kill them and they'd still come back.
ART BELL: Really. So that part was real.
Not the oozing out of the walls.
ART BELL: Not the oozing out of the walls.
That was one of those things that, in fact, is sometimes in my
mind, at least, is stranger than fiction. What really happened,
that I think they tried to draw that from what really happened
in the house was that there were keyholes old-style doors, this
is, the house was built in the 30s and it had old-style keyholes...
ART BELL: I remember them. Yes.
They had drips that got longer and longer. They were black. They
were almost like an epoxy. And the longer we were in the house,
the longer the drips came out of certain keyholes on the 2nd and
ART BELL: Oh, oh! So there was some basis in
Yes, but not the oozing out of the walls.
ART BELL: Not the oozing, but something.
And then there was [unintelligible]. We would wake up in the morning
and we would find this gelatin-like substance going from room
to room. And you would think, "Well the kids got into Jell-O or
somebody did something," but there was no Jell-O in the house
at the time, and the kids didn't do that. And it was sticky and
it was there. It was there for...
ART BELL: So what did you do with this stuff?
Just try and clean it up, or what?
Well it was like spots. It wasn't like, you know, a big mess of
some kind. It tracked from room to room. And Kathy would wipe
ART BELL: And just move on. So that was occurring
No, that would... I mean, you couldn't depend on anything. The
one thing, thank God, is that the lights didn't go out. At not
time did they, you know they would flicker, but they did not
ART BELL: They would flicker, though?
ART BELL: So I guess I see what you mean by a
3-ring circus. All of this kind of thing was going on.
Well, I'm sorry, I strayed from where I was going before. One
of the things was that I would be laying there in bed on my back
and everyone else would be asleep, and the house would be quiet
and I would be ready to go to sleep, and I would hear or I would
be already asleep and I would wakeup to a sound of musicians,
like tuning-up downstairs.
ART BELL: Really?
And I would think that a clock radio had gone off and it was off
the station, or something like that. And there was no clock radio
down there, but that's the first thing that comes to your mind
you wouldn't know what else it could be. You'd go down there,
and there'd be no noise, and the dog would be asleep right by
the front door. Harry was a big black malamute he wasn't a shirking
little princess, he was a really cool dog, and he was in love
with those kids. He was gotten as a tiny puppy.
ART BELL: I don't know whether you've ever been
asked this, George, but its a logical question in view of the
DeFeo slaughter. Was there ever a time when you found your mind
drifting to an awful place? Where you were perhaps being urged
to, or considered doing evil, yourself, George?
That's not a question I've ever answered in public.
ART BELL: Really?
I don't know if I'll answer you this straight out. Okay? But what
I will tell you is this. The tool we mentioned of humor?
ART BELL: Yes.
I told Father Ray many of the things that went on for us. And
he was the one that told me about humor that evil can't stand
it, it can't be in the presence of it it has no understanding
of humor. It can't relate to it. And it drives it away. And I
had to learn the mental ability, if you will, to be able to think
of something humorous when I would get a thought that I didn't
ART BELL: So you did answer it. You did get them.
And that's how you responded.
That's the only thing that's ever worked other than the rosary.
ART BELL: A kind of a defense. Humor is a defense
there's no question about it. You're right about that. It is.
And so you were strong enough to muster that up as a defense.
Well it was a very it became an exercise. But it took years
to get for it to be just an exercise and not something that was
a real struggle.
ART BELL: I understand that you actually began
to have some feelings of sorrow or a caring about DeFeo, who,
you know, was going to be in jail for six life sentences. And
the only reason that I can understand that you would begin to
get those feelings is because you would understand perhaps a little
bit of what he went through; and that's why I ask you the question,
There's no doubt in our minds. Never has been any doubt after
living there that a sane person doesn't do this to his family,
and someone with any kind of right thinking, or ability to reason
that reason has been taken away, or has been obfuscated in such
a way occluded or clouded, or they've been separated from their
reasoning powers in a way that most of us hopefully will never
understand. And there's no doubt in our mind that he was influenced
by that house and that he was controlled at least for a point.
He provided a service to that, if you will, that was so horrible
that he couldn't live with it or realize it, himself. And without
extreme, long-term psychiatric care, he had no help of redemption
of any kind in this life.
ART BELL: Do you think that his case should be
reviewed for the reasons you're talking about right now?
I don't know that what I think I don't know that that matters.
ART BELL: It probably doesn't, but its an important
He's had his appeals. They've failed. I think that a disservice
was done to him terribly years ago, that it wasn't a full-blown
insanity plea, that it wasn't appealed on that basis, that it
wasn't an absolute that he needed psychiatric care and still
does. I think its inhumane to think that okay they got the guy.
He did it. Yes. Physically he did the murders, but spiritually,
emotionally, no, I don't believe that he's, in a pure sense, responsible
for that as a human being. I think that he needs help, and I don't
think that anyone cares enough to try and get it for him anymore.
We did what we could and we tried a number of different ways,
and his attorney William Weber wanted to do a book and make money
off him and signed Ronald DeFeo up for a 5% cut of whatever book
that his lawyer did, you know put together. So it became obvious
that these people were not going to try and help him.
ART BELL: The final night that you spent in that
house, you've never talked about. You've always refused to talk
about the last night in the house. Why?
What happens, Art, is when you do that, the worst of it comes
back. It doesn't its not like it disappeared. Its not like I
can detach myself from it and just talk about it like what I did
yesterday. You feel it. Not all of it, thank God, but it comes
back and its not a pleasant experience.
I was laying there in bed. Kathy levitated and I had to grab her
to keep her from going off the bed...
ART BELL: There's no question in your mind, George,
you weren't dreaming this. You weren't asleep. [George laughs]
I mean its an obvious question.
I understand the question, yes. No, there's no question. We were
so very pleased three years later to have Chris Googas come along
and give us a polygraph test each of us in his office with
ART BELL: I was not aware that had been done.
Yes. And one of the questions... It was a long process. Its not
like you walk in and strap on the machine and go.
ART BELL: Oh yeah.
You have to agree to the questions; they have to run a baseline;
they do a physiological work up to get within that baseline so
that they can get the real responses. Chris Gugas had taught the
use of the polygraph. He was considered number two and number
three man in the world at the time. He had taught the use of the
polygraph throughout the world for the armed forces, for the army,
for their intelligence people. He had been instructed personally
by the head guy at the FBI.
ART BELL: So that was one of the questions he
One of the questions was "Did you levitate?" One of the questions
was "Did Kathy turn into an old woman?"
ART BELL: And you answered them all and went
sailing past the polygraph.
Absolutely. Later those findings were published in the National
Star, of all things. It was one of those things where the movie
company was getting ready to release the movie, and they wanted
to do this, and these are expensive tests.
ART BELL: Oh, I'm well-aware.
They were willing to pay for it, and we said, "Get us the best
there is and we'll do it, otherwise we're not interested in doing
it with someone that just got out of school." You get five questions
they have to be yes or no, and that, you know, you get one shot
at doing this thing right. Its not like you have...
ART BELL: Well George, you know, you know, people
who are lying usually don't agree to a polygraph. That's for damn
sure. George, hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour...
talk excised] [break]
BELL: Once again, here's George Lutz. George, when you
saw Kathy become a 90-year-old woman, or better, suddenly I
can't even imagine what would have gone through your mind. I mean,
it would have been like out of this house now. Gone. I'm outta
here. Running out of here, actually. But to see that happen to
your wife apparently more than once?
ART BELL: Yeah, more than once. I mean, what
went through your mind, aside from questioning your own sanity,
once you realized this really was going on? What did you think
What occurs to me to answer you right now is that I'm thinking
"how do we fix this - what caused this?" But not putting it together
with the house as such.
ART BELL: Do you think that you were seeing your
wife as an old woman, or did you think you were seeing something
I had watched the transformation, so I knew it was her. I wasn't
going all of those, all kinds of other places, I don't think,
in my mind. Its so long ago now, Art, for me to try to tell you
exactly what I was thinking then, I couldn't do it. It wouldn't
be right. I'd be making something up that wouldn't be what went
through my mind then.
ART BELL: Yeah, don't do that.
I know the main thing was "how do we fix this what caused this."
That's the obvious stuff.
ART BELL: Alright, well obviously its...
There's revulsion that I remember feeling also. I mean this is
not a pleasant thing.
ART BELL: Of course not. And seeing somebody
levitate in the air...
But I don't know that you'd put it to the house.
ART BELL: Well I can understand. I mean you loved
that house. You were trying, I'm sure, in your own mind, to think
of anything else other than "the house."
Absolutely. When the odors occurred in the basement, you go looking
for broken pipes or leaks.
ART BELL: Absolutely.
When you have noises, you go trying to look for the cause of them.
We'd be sitting in the kitchen at night, and the kids would be
asleep, and you'd hear someone upstairs walking around. So you'd
go up and you'd find all the kids asleep in bed. So you'd come
back down and a couple of nights later, you'd have some people
over and they would hear the same thing. Then you would know that
you weren't crazy, and then you would know that something is going
on that you don't really understand. But that doesn't mean you
just get up and leave your house.
ART BELL: Aside from having a priest in, you
did you and Kathy tried to bless the house on your own, right?
Yes we did twice.
ART BELL: What happened?
We were, basically we were told it didn't work. We heard this
chorus of voices, as its been described, asking us to stop blessing
the house. We went around and opened a window in each room. A
friend of ours when I said earlier that you have people over
and they hear the same things well, in the process of that,
a fellow by the name of Bill Newcombe had come over and excuse
me for just a moment, I have to cough...
ART BELL: I understand, I've been doing it non-stop
here for days.
What a cold.
ART BELL: Yeah.
And he had a similar problem in his house when he was in a house
that evidently was haunted and he said you go around, you bless
to do the house blessing yourself you go around, you open
a window in each room, you say the Lord's Prayer, you tell whatever
is there to leave, and then you close the window. Well that seemed
like a reasonable solution, especially since here was someone
that it had worked for. And he had heard the footsteps, and he
knew the kids were asleep. So we did that.
My son Danny's hands were caught in the window in the sewing room,
and they were flattened. His hands were down and the window had
flattened the hands, and the immediate reaction is "we got to
go to the hospital." And we start to go get ready to go, and...
ART BELL: And what happened? This window, of
its apparent own accord, came slamming down on his hands?
Yes. And it didn't just slam down, it was mushed in such a way
that his hands were actually deformed they were flat. So we
get ready to go to the hospital, and then and he's screaming
and everyone is running around getting their coats and getting
him downstairs and trying to calm him down, which was pretty much
impossible. And you go to leave and look at his hands and he's
ART BELL: What?!
It didn't occur to us until much later that the house never really
wanted us to leave. We would always invite people over. We would
have, you know but we wouldn't we would go out of our way
not to leave not to go out someplace.
While we were there, we had enrolled in a re-upholstery course
at the local high school. [coughs]
ART BELL: [unintelligible] colds do ya, folks.
ART BELL: That's alright.
And we never went to any of the classes. Kathy went out and bought
the material to recover the dining room set that we had bought
from the DeFeo estate, but we don't, we just don't go out.
ART BELL: You know, that's a curious thing. You
did buy a number of things from the DeFeo estate, from the house,
ART BELL: Why did you do that? Just because it
was a really good buy, or, I mean, what was the reasoning?
Well, let's start with, we had two houses. Not both of us liked
each other's furniture. We had garage sales at Kathy's house,
we had garage sales at my house.
ART BELL: Alright.
Now we're moving into a 4,000 square foot house, and we've got
to fill it up, if we can, with some stuff. They made us a deal
we kinda, sorta, couldn't refuse.
ART BELL: Yep. Gotcha.
And they had nice stuff. It wasn't like this was blood-spattered
or anything, it was...
ART BELL: Good stuff, yeah.
Yeah. The dining room set was extraordinary. The kitchen set was
lovely. Some of the dressers that were up in Missy's room were
fine. There was no reason not to buy all of that. It was there.
ART BELL: Yeah, and really, if you were buying
the house, and you're walking into that, and you know what happened
then what's the difference between that and the furniture, the
Well the mattresses weren't there, or anything like that. I mean
we had our own beds. It was one of those things that was decided
at the closing. What happened at the closing was that they had
the people who ran the estate had filled up the oil tank,
which was almost another $2,000 in cash that was needed right
then and there, too; so actual cash out of pocket at the closing,
including the furniture and everything, was about $24,000 or something
On the last night that we were in there, I wasn't able to get
up out of bed. There was a storm going on, as far as we were concerned,
as a family, in the house, while we were awake.
ART BELL: A storm in the house?
No, out while we were in the house, there was a storm going
on right around outside. Big storm. Later it has been said that
there was no storm there. Well, we know what we experienced, and
as far as we're concerned, there was an incredible storm that
The boys' beds were being lifted up and slammed down overhead
of me, but I could not get up out of bed to go up and deal with
that, or stop it, or see what was going on.
ART BELL: What about Kathy?
That's when Kathy was levitating and moving away from me and turning
into an old woman. Kathy was mostly asleep that night. I had brought
Harry, our dog, up and tied him to the master bedroom doorknob
for him to stay there at the right there. And he had kept getting
up, walking in circles, throwing up and then going back to sleep
ART BELL: When you say you couldn't get up, you
say you didn't sleep on your stomach, right?
Right. I could not get up out of bed.
ART BELL: You literally couldn't move?
No, I could not move.
ART BELL: And this went on all night long?
This went on for most of the night. The bed was soaking wet, and
it was from sweat.
ART BELL: Prior to this night, had you been talking
to Kathy at all, privately I would assume you had conversations
with Kathy about what was going on, aside from the children?
Yes, and talking and she would tell me what Missy would say
to her and the boys were treating each other differently then
they had before we moved-in there. Everyone kind of went to their
own spaces at times. For each of us, we learned later, it was
different experience at times in the house. It wasn't like we
all experienced everything in unison, or saw the same things or
heard the same things.
ART BELL: Well that's the next question I was
going to ask. Do you have any knowledge, George I asked you
about your own state of mind and whether you were perhaps being
pushed to do something awful, or felt moments of that. I wonder
if since you've found out that anybody else in the family was
being pushed in one way or the other.
You need to ask me that again a different way, if you would. Sorry.
I don't want to answer this in a way that I am assuming what you're
ART BELL: Yeah. Are you now aware of anybody
else in your family was being affected in a particularly negative
way, perhaps to the degree that they might have done something
awful? And if you don't wanna answer that...
No, I'm not aware of that. No, that's not... The boys were little.
ART BELL: Unfortunately, in America we live in
a time where little boys have done some pretty awful things. And
so if there really was, if there was evil in that home, George,
its affect could have been different on each and every one of
It was different on each of us, Art, but it wasn't I don't think
of it in those terms. I have never considered that that was a
strong possibility. One of the things we did do going back to
your previous question, though, and this will probably help with
this is we tried to talk to Father Ray a number of times, and
we got phone static, got hung up on, unable to call him from the
house. I would go to my office and I'd be able to talk to him,
and tell him what was going on. We asked him to come back to the
house to bless it. You know, the blessing hadn't worked. When
we got through to him the next morning, after our last night there,
and he asked us why we were still there, that's when it was slammed
home "we gotta leave. He's not coming here, he's not going to
do anything, and we're not going through any more of this."
ART BELL: Well did he ever break down and actually
tell you what he really thought about that house? Obviously if
he said "You're still there?" like that, in that...
Yes, he did. But that was after we moved out.
ART BELL: And what did he say?
His words were almost parallel to Father Malachi's in some ways.
He said that they knew about the house, meaning the archdiocese,
the Catholic Church.
ART BELL: Oh!
That they knew that the De that there had been things that had
gone on when the DeFeos were there. The DeFeos had had masses
said there, which may very well have triggered what went on for
them just like having the house blessed did for us.
When I heard and I never heard the words, myself, on your show
that Father Malachi said but when I heard that he said the Church
knew about this...
ART BELL: Yes.
That was not a surprise to me. It was a surprise that he said
it on the air, live, because the Church has denied and denied
and denied the existence of evil in that house at that time.
ART BELL: Well, George, Father Martin admitted
and said a lot of things that the Church, as an organization,
would not be willing to. Father Martin was close to a couple of
popes. He was way up in the Catholic Church at one point. Father
Martin said some things about the Church and the Vatican, itself,
that I'm sure the Vatican would have preferred he not say.
I consider that truly a heroic act when I heard that.
ART BELL: Oh, indeed.
Because the Church has gone to great lengths in different interviews
and at different times to deny that there was any validity to
this case. And for him to say that and know it. And I've heard
this from other priests, privately, over the years; but the Church
has never said, "Look, we knew there was a problem with the DeFeos
in that house, and we believe that there's something really wrong
ART BELL: You know, its a strange thing, George,
when you think about it a little bit. My wife is a non-practicing
Catholic I'm not a Catholic, and I think I'm, you know, I'm
not very strictly in a church/religious way. That's not me. I
think that I certainly believe in a creator and so forth and so
on, but I think its strange, George, that the Church, itself,
which preaches that there is a God and there is a heaven and there
is all the rest of it, seems, particularly in modern times, to
be in denial about the opposite about evil which so obviously,
even to a halfway rationally-thinking person, oughtta be. If you've
got good, I mean there seems to be an opposite to everything,
then there's also evil in the world, and the Church seems to be
in official denial about evil. Do you agree with that?
I think of it in a different way. I'm not going to say that I
disagree with you. I understand why you say what you do. And I
have no idea, really, why I'm more tolerant, maybe, than being
so quick to condemn the Catholic Church like so many people are
ART BELL: I don't know if this is really I
don't know if its a condemnation.
I understand, but I... Look, I'm a divorced Catholic. I can't
partake of the sacraments. I became a Catholic after this, voluntarily.
At one point I was a Eucharistic Minister in San Diego, at the
Mission San Diego de Alcala which is the Basilica in San Diego.
Nothing pleased me more than to be a part of the Church. But when
I got divorced from Kathy, that was my votive to take partake
of the sacraments was gone. And that hurt. And it still does.
I went to mass for the first time on Christmas Eve first time
in something like 13 12 or 13 years this last week. And it
wasn't the same as going to a mass that Father Ray said. When
you went to mass with Father Ray, it was a joyous celebration.
And this was a serious Christmas Eve mass, and there was nothing
wrong with it, it just it was like the heart had gone out of
some of it. And I missed that. And I will always support the church
the Catholic Church. And if they have, for their reasons, done
and said things that they believe are right, and they can believe
in their heart is true okay. But we have pictures of apparently
what is a very good likeness of Padre Pio, who is now Saint Pio,
in the house, appearing there on the side of a moose head, that
was my grandfather's and at the time that that picture was taken,
Lorraine Warren one of the psychics that was in the house, has
been on your show was saying a prayer to Padre Pio, asking him
to come and be with her in spirit there at that house. This is
during the investigation. And so, you know, the picture's more
important to me that what the Church says. What some priest says
that wasn't there. Okay? The picture to me is more to me. And
I hold Padre Pio very dear to my heart. And always will.
ART BELL: George, the last night in the house
do you remember the time, the actual time of day you left? Was
it morning? Was it nighttime?
Somewhere's around 4 in the afternoon.
ART BELL: Four in the oh in the afternoon?
Really? So you had that horrible night where you couldn't get
out of bed, and then you had all day long until 4 in the afternoon
before you left that house.
ART BELL: What was that day like?
Well, its that idea that the house doesn't want you to leave.
Getting out of that house wasn't easy, even after Father Ray saying,
"What are you still doing there? Get out. Can't you go someplace.
You can go to Kathy's Mom's house. Go someplace. Go to Lee's Mom's
ART BELL: Did he think you could ever get back
in, or did he mean "leave and don't ever go back"?
No, he never I don't think we would have left if he had said
as silly as that sounds I don't think we would have if he
had said to us "No, you're leaving and you're leaving your stuff,
and you're not coming back, and forget it." I don't think he could
have gotten us out. I think without him choosing the right words
that was one of those things about meeting him that was just
so extraordinary about him. He later went on and got a degree
in forensic psychiatry. He just knew what to say to move you,
to get you to do what you needed to do even if you were in denial.
The only other person I've ever found like that was the Archbishop
of Canterbury's exorcist, Reverend Neal Smith and that was years
later when we did a book tour for the original book in London,
England. We met with him through a reporter for the New York Times
I'm sorry, for the London Times her name is Dani Brooke, and
she had even published a book on natural childbirth. She was quite
a well-known reporter at the time, and she introduced us. Made
arrangements to meet with Reverend Neal Smith, and he performed
for us what some people would call an exorcism I call it more
of a blessing but it was a rite of separation in the Anglican
Church, and it was a separation from the house from the affects
of the house. He looked right at Kathy and he said, "You're still
affected by this."
ART BELL: Did Father Ray think that if you didn't
leave that house, somebody was going to die?
Yes he did.
ART BELL: Hold on, George.
BELL: Now George, I'm going to visit this again, and
I know you've never really answered this publically, when I ask
you about your state of mind through this, and whether you ever
thought that you were perhaps on the edge, or even considering,
even flitting through your mind, that you might do something bad.
There was a story that you took you gun you had a gun...
Yes, I'm sorry, I can't get this to go off of speakerphone now,
so I'm going to have to talk to you on the speaker. I hope that's...
BELL: Okay, now let me try again. George, again, with
regard to your state of mind, there was a story that you went
to the Amityville police department and you turned in your gun
saying that you perhaps had an impulse to murder your family.
Is that a bogus story, or did you turn in your gun?
I had a license to carry a firearm in Nassau and Suffolk counties
and upstate New York, but not in the 5 boroughs of New York City.
And the Sullivan Act in New York prohibits that prohibits it
and its a felony. So we were going into the city, so the proper
thing to do is drop it off at a local police station. That's what
I always did. Nothing else to that story.
ART BELL: So there was nothing about any impulse
or any of the rest of it.
ART BELL: It was just you dropped it off.
Right. That's what you're supposed to do.
ART BELL: Were you ever concerned about the fact
that you were in possession of a gun? I mean did that ever give
you pause for thought?
Well, its a responsibility, but not in terms of the house.
ART BELL: Yeah, okay. That's what I meant. And
not in terms of the house.
No, I had a cash payroll from my business that's why I had a
license to carry. Its not an easy thing to get.
ART BELL: I know. Alright. You left the house,
4 o'clock one afternoon, you just enough is enough. You left.
I mean did you what did you think at that moment? Did you think,
"Look, I'm leaving this house I'm never coming back I'm gonna
leave everything I own, virtually, in the house and just get into
the car and go"?
No, absolutely not. Probably would not have left the house, Art.
I wouldn't have been able to give it up. My boats, motorcycles,
everything was there.
ART BELL: Yeah, I know.
Little things like the 16mm movies of my whole family I had
just gotten them from my mom so that I could put them together
and make a family movie, from the time when we were little kids.
All of that kind of stuff I mean it just goes on and on and
No, we were going to Kathy's Mom's to stay there, at Father Ray's
direction/suggestion, and that was the mission just leave the
house with the boys, a couple of changes of clothes and go. Get
the dog and go. So that's what we did.
It was... The world became very small there. We didn't want to
go out, and leaving the house was a problem. And so to venture
someplace you had to, like, form it in your mind. I didn't go
to the office anywhere near as often as I had before this. I mean
before I'd go six days a week, sometimes seven. I'd be lucky to
show up three times a week while I was living in that house.
ART BELL: Really. Really. So it was having a
profound psychological effect on you.
It changed everyone's point of view about life and what was important.
Kathy always described the house as charming, and then she thought
about it after we left and said, "Yeah, it really was charming."
It really charmed her.
ART BELL: Hmm. So you intended what, then? When
you left you were going to come back. In other words, you thought
you would come back eventually.
Oh yes. And for, let's say, the first week out of the house, the
hardest thing for me was to drive past that exit and go on to
Kathy's Mom's house. All my stuff is there.
ART BELL: And keep going. Yeah.
And there were a couple of times when it was a real struggle to
just mentally keep going to Kathy's Mom's house and not stop and
check on my stuff.
ART BELL: So, George, why didn't you go back?
What stopped you?
I went back once with another psychic his name is Dr Heffernan.
He said that he cleared the house. He said that we would... Kathy
didn't come with me. It was a Sunday afternoon. He had a little
girl with him. He went into trance. He had someone else with him
as well, and he said we would smell violets and know that the
house was cleared.
I didn't smell them. I wasn't convinced, and that was the last
time I was there.
When Laura DiDio found the Warrens and got them to come down,
she had wanted to get Hans Holzer to come, and he was busy at
the time. He went to the house later. I met with them, gave them
the key, but I would not go in the house.
ART BELL: Yeah, I heard that. That you.
The idea was to get the house fixed. When they tell me that the
house is fixed, then I'll go back, but not until. And when Ed
Warren said this is and he wanted, you know they went in,
Ed & Lorraine and Laura DiDio went in the house, and Ed said he
wanted to put more people together and come back with a team.
And we invited in the people from Duke University, and the Psychical
Research Institute there.
And Mary maybe didn't make it clearer earlier this evening she
had her own school where she taught psychics in Connecticut. And
after leaving the house, she moved to Florida. She up and left,
the house affected her life so much.
They came in with the team, and they all met and gave, you know,
they still had the key, and its like, "Okay, go do what you're
going to do." And when Ed came back afterwards and said, "I'm
not going back I can't do this and you're gonna have to get
an exorcist to come in and exorcise the house he's gonna have
to say mass in the house, and basically he'll be putting his life
on the line to do it." How do you go and ask someone to do that
for a house?
So then we were then the idea started to settle in that we're
stuck here now. We've got everything there. I've still got my
business, and we're living in Kathy's Mom's house, but life can't
continue this way.
ART BELL: Was there a profound change when you
moved to your relative's house? I mean, was there a profound relief?
Was it obviously, at that point, over, or was something still
No, it kept going on, but it was different. Kathy turned into
the old woman again, in front of her Mom, which then gave a witness
that was different than just me.
ART BELL: Sure.
Kathy and I, when we took the polygraph tests years later with
Chris Gugas, one of the things we wanted to make sure that got
covered in the tests was "Is it true that you levitated at your
Mom's at Kathy's Mom's house after leaving the house in Amityville."
And yes, we did.
And we levitated together that time. And that was a pleasant experience.
That was not scary or frightening. We were talking to each other,
and we were in the bedroom. We shared a little single bed there
a little cot. But that wasn't an unpleasant experience by any
ART BELL: George, does Kathy still talk about
this or not?
She did for the History Channel two years ago. Right now, even
getting up is a real problem for her physically. But there is
8 hours of tape that MPH has that we did that interview side by
side. So I would have to say yes, of course.
ART BELL: When the... The current owners of that
house now say that nothing is going on. They believe the house
is clear and everything's just spiffy and okay. Do you buy that?
I'm glad that they're able to say that, and I have no reason to
think otherwise. I'm not there. I haven't been back there in 25
years. Whatever's going on for them is their business. They knew
what they were buying when they bought it.
ART BELL: Well by then they certainly did.
We gave it back to the bank. Couldn't stomach the idea of selling
it to another family.
ART BELL: You know, that's another thing that
I think the audience should understand. There have been allegations
over the years that this was a hoax some big money-making affair
on your part. So you lost the house. You had to give the house
back to the bank. And while people have made millions, I guess,
on the book and the movie, and whatever all else has come out
about Amityville the History Channel (I forget, or ABC, I can't
recall which one) said, 'Look, the Lutzes may have made a grand
total of $300,000 minus, no doubt, attorneys' fees and a lot of
other stuff, so...
No, I think the $300,000 or so would be the expendable after
the taxes and all the rest.
ART BELL: And even after attorneys?
Yeah, sure. There have been a number of lawsuits about this over
the years. What happened is that we moved out in January of 76.
We bought it in November, so 28 days later when we moved out
which is like a full cycle of the moon, which I don't know if
that matters or not but eventually I sold my business. I put
it up for sale in the Long Island, in the New York State Surveyor's
Civil Engineering Magazine, and the first buyer bought it. We
wrote up a contract right then and there between the two of us.
A couple of days later his attorney and my attorney put it into
a formal language. Transferred ownership of my grandfather had
died during that time, and some of his furniture that my Mom and
my Aunts did not want from his house we got some of that furniture.
And I had one motorcycle that I had managed to hold onto, and
salvage from the whole thing. A couple of people went in on Easter
Sunday for us and got my Grandfather's chest back out, which was
just about all that we were able to get out of the house. We donated
the food to Salvation Army and that was it for that.
Mother's Day of 1976 we landed in San Diego on a plane. We gave
the car away to like one of the last office cars that I had
gave it to the guy that was at the ticket place, where you show
up at JKF, and said, "Here, here's the keys, here's the title..."
ART BELL: Oh my God. You were really cutting
all ties, weren't you?
Oh, it was gone, yeah. You bet. I had one car still there that
we had bought. We got rid of the van because it developed a problem
that wouldn't go away. So I had bought a 1973 Thunderbird a
used car that we used. And then I left that at Father Ray's rectory,
and we went on out to San Diego. And we got off the plane there
and we had hotel reservations up in Del Mar, and we stayed at
the Del Mar Inn for a couple of weeks. And Kathy found a condo
for us to rent over in La Hoya, and we stayed there for a while,
and then I went back to get the car, and meanwhile Kathy had found
a house out in Tierrasanta, and we moved there and rented a house
for a couple of years. And then eventually we bought a house up
ART BELL: And at this point, do you think the
effect of what had happened to you was gone, or still in some
way with you?
I've always kind of looked at it, Art, like it had a half-life.
I eventually came to believe that the half-life wasn't necessarily
the same as what it would have been for something radioactive,
but that as time went on it would go away, it would get less,
it would get less. There were many times when we really made an
effort not to blame everything that went wrong in our lives on
ART BELL: On the house. Yeah.
And so we would be asked, and we'd say, "Yeah, you know, it appears
to be over it's over you know; for us, it's gone," and then
so many other things would go wrong.
I'll give you an example. When we left New York, we didn't have
a book contract we had a... Weber, the DeFeos' attorney, had
asked us to sign a book contract with him, and we refused because
he was because of all the [unintelligible]. This was a really
sick contract, and it was very disturbing. This is a guy that
was trying to get us to donate the house to his corporation and
then take lie detector tests, and if we failed the lie detector
tests, then we were going to give him the house, anyway, and everything
else. Plus, he was gonna get to say what we did for the rest of
our lives with regards to this story. And it was just beyond belief.
Plus he was gonna pay DeFeo 5% of the proceeds for murdering his
So a friend of ours, he hooked us up Tam Mossman, who's the editor
for Jane Roberts' books the "Seth Speaks" books that Prentice-Hall
had published and Tam Mossman knew Jay Anson, and had suggested
him. We met with Jay Anson. We spoke with him. We gave him the
research materials we had done on the house, and some tapes that
Kathy and I had done just to undo this. We were sitting around
talking about it at Kathy's Mom's house afterwards, over the weeks,
after we left the house.
And said, "Look, we're not going to sit down and be interviewed
about this. You can do what you can from the tapes, and then we'll
try to correct whatever you write, or help you out with that,
but we're just not going to relive this. We've done it once and
we're not doing it again. We did it for the tapes.
We went to California and a year and a half later at the end
of August in 1977 is when we actually had a book contract. Then,
right after that, Anson sold the rights for the movie rights to
CBS without our permission. He just went ahead and did it. And
then AIP found out it American International Pictures and
what they did was they went and got the rights from CBS and came
to us and said, "We're going to make a movie," and we said, "How
are you gonna do that you don't have our permission to do that,
and its our story?" And so we had to renegotiate all of that,
and in the process of that, then we were finally able to get some
control back over what happened with the story in the future.
Not then, but in the future. So we got what is known as the sequel
rights, which is very rare you just don't do that and it was
just one of those things that happened to work out right. Who
was even thinking about sequels then?
ART BELL: Oh, of course.
Anson did a deal with us that it was about 8 or 9 years later
that we discovered that he and Myron Saland, whom he had worked
for at the time at Professional Films they became the producers
for the movie, and so far they've made about $22 million personally
between the two of them.
ART BELL: So in other words, a lot of people
have made a lot of money.
Well Anson and Saland, from this the author of the original
book he made at least $10 million for himself.
ART BELL: Millions and millions.
ART BELL: And yet you've cleared maybe $300,000.
We cleared after taxes and lawyers yes.
ART BELL: $300,000.
Well we got the sequel rights, so no one can do anything with
The Amityville Horror story in the future without our
ART BELL: Which may, I guess one can hope, will
turn out well for you. Who knows.
Well my attitude about it has always been one that not necessarily
everyone understands or agrees with, but its one I came to on
my own and that is that whatever exposes this stuff happens,
and we didn't know that. And we learned that from the people we
were fortunate enough to meet along the way. And people don't
talk about it. And we can understand why they don't, because we
understood there'd be controversy, and we understood there'd be
ART BELL: Oh, there's always those, George
I've had them all the time I've been doing this program. Stay
right where you are...
BELL: I'm intensely curious about something, George.
You contacted me and you obviously then wanted to do this interview.
I wonder why.
You're going off the air, and I never have talked to you.
ART BELL: That's true.
You have the greatest respect around the country around the
world about these kinds of things.
ART BELL: Oh, that's very kind. Thank you. Well
I surely appreciate your having contacted me.
And there's another side to this, and you and I spoke of this.
The part about Father Malachi Martin was very important to me.
I haven't been able to verify it with your archives. Its just
my ability to find the right program when he said that, and when
he exposed it for what it was. And that was very important for
me, but also over the years there have been some I don't know
another way to put it real loud-mouthed people about, you know,
calling this a hoax, and its not a hoax. And I've gotten to the
point of where I'm really tired of even hearing that.
ART BELL: Yeah, I never thought it was a hoax,
George. For what that's worth.
Its the kind of thing that has hurt my family for a long time,
and I've gotten to a place mentally or spiritually with it all
that just says, "You know, bring it on," because this is what
happened, this is the truth. These things happen, and I understand
why people don't talk about them when they do happen to them.
In my own opinion, I would do fictional books, fiction books,
books based on fact and factual books. Anything at all to expose
the existence of this stuff. To get people to read about it and
ART BELL: Alright, I've got somebody else you
might know on the phone. Joel Martin. Joel was the Long Island
correspondent for the Associated Press at the time of the DeFeo
massacre. The first reporter, actually, to arrive at the scene
of those murders. Joel, hi. Thank you for getting to us. You're
on the air, Joel.
Oh, good morning, Art.
Thank you for taking the time to talk to me. Yes, hello George.
GEORGE LUTZ: I haven't you and I have never
No, we were on the History Channel special together, and we talked
on the phone years ago, but somehow we kept missing each other.
We were on the Lou Gentile Show, at the same time.
Yes, we were on the Lou Gentile Show recently as well. And as
you know, I was the first reporter there that horrible night in
November of 1974, and I saw one of the dead bodies and later was
questioned by the DA and then became involved with the side of
the story that called it a hoax, as you just referred to. And
again, I've had years and years of listening to Stephen Kaplan
debate the Webers forgive me, the Warrens about whether it
was true or not. And I really have not the same opinion as Steve
Kaplan has, that it was a hoax. I don't believe that at all.
What I wanted you to do, I was hopeful, was to clear up some of
the questions I had. Because when I was there the first night
in '74 I never thought the story would continue. Then five years
later I had that exclusive radio interview with Bill Weber. And
he contradicted a lot of what you said, or at least, you know,
raised doubts about it. I'm just curious how you can...
ART BELL: Joel, Joel, Joel, Joel what do you
want cleared up?
What I'd like cleared up is what George Lutz' opinion is of what
Kaplan said, which was counter to what George said, and what Bill
Weber said, which took issue with what George said. I don't want
to argue it I would just love to hear George's opinion. [unintelligible]
because we haven't met to talk about it.
ART BELL: Alright. George?
Actually you can add a new one to that someone who calls herself
Geraldine DeFeo as well. And I understand, you know, that she...
glitch - unknown amount of time lost]
LUTZ: ...that he interviewed
He met me. He and Geraldine did both meet me. That's right.
Did they interview you?
Well they, you know, they asked questions and frankly it wasn't
a formal interview where we sat down and they, you know, said,
"Well let's take notes." It wasn't the kind of thing a reporter
does. But yeah, they definitely questioned me and they definitely
talked to me.
And is she someone that you knew back then?
Its interesting about Geraldine. Geraldine claims to have been
married to Ronnie DeFeo.
Geraldine's physical appearance today, to be kind, is not anywhere
near what it looked like back in the 1970s. Now I don't know what
her role was back in the 1970s, but if you ask me do I recognize
a girl who looks something like that back around the time when
this happened yeah, she does look like her. But what she did
or what her role was, you would know. And those are the kinds
of things I was curious about getting answered, since I never
believed her, or I never thought I'd fall into the story, though,
Did you ever hear back then that she was married to him?
Nothing like that.
No one ever knew that.
There was never no never brought up in the trial, not by Weber,
So for all practical purposes, in the 70s she didn't exist.
For all practical purposes there was a girl who looked like that,
but in terms of the story she tells no, I never heard that story
in the 70s. I never heard that story until much, much more recently.
But I recall the face, but that doesn't necessarily suggest that
what she says is, you know, exactly what happened.
ART BELL: Well Joel, you've obviously followed
this story for all these years.
Oh God, yeah.
ART BELL: Are you, I mean how do you feel? I
mean do you think something happened in that house that took the
Lutzes out of it?
Yeah, you know what I think, frankly I did not have the privilege
of interviewing Malachi Martin more than one time. And I know
you did many, many times.
ART BELL: Yes I did.
Yeah. But I tend to agree with his concept that you mentioned
before but I don't know if you're referring to your own or Malachi
Martin's. I've been listening since this began its fascinating,
by the way. I'm thoroughly enjoying it.
I think that if you say there's good, you have to say there's
evil. And I do think that if you fool around with things that
you don't understand, you could be fooling around with things
that are evil.
ART BELL: And do you think that's what happened
to the Lutzes?
ART BELL: Alright, Joel, thank you. And I'm gonna
go ahead and disconnect there. Do you wanna go ahead and address
anything, George? Do you wanna...
Sure, I'd like to deal with what Joel brought up, which was Stephen
Kaplan and William Weber.
ART BELL: Yeah, fire away.
They're individuals that came to us in different ways. We sought
out Weber found out that he was the attorney for DeFeo and
so we contacted him through a friend of ours, Mimi Vedder, who
worked as a receptionist, I believe it was, or an assistant of
some kind, at his dentist's office. She got a hold of him for
us. We talked with him on the phone. Told him we had lived in
the house. That we believed we had information that would help
get him help of some kind help get DeFeo help. And we agreed
to meet with him. And he came over to Kathy's Mom's a couple of
Saturdays and we sat and we talked.
At one time he introduced to us a fellow who was supposed to be
a criminologist, who eventually did an article that was unauthorized,
that was published in Good Housekeeping magazine, and another
one in New York Mirror, I think it was Sunday News Mirror. Weber
is a slick guy. He's a guy who will say what he wants to to fit
It became obvious to him when we left for California, and had
our attorney, Frank Giorgio, notice him formally that our story
was ours and we were not going to do a contract with him about
a book, and we didn't want anymore to do with that. We weren't
interested in dealing with him. And they wrote back and acknowledged
that, and then he goes and he gets Paul Hoffman to do this "Good
Housekeeping" article, and Prentice-Hall wasn't even going to
publish the book after that was done. It wasn't that the article
was inaccurate the problem was that was done without our permission
and under less then honorable circumstances to say the least.
I mean this guy was represented to us as a criminologist helping
Ronald DeFeo get mental help. And instead, he's a writer trying
to make money for Weber.
ART BELL: Yeah, still, I can't for one second
imagine that you would have two seconds of interest in helping,
in any way, or feeling compassion for DeFeo, unless you understood
a very profound reason why you should feel that compassion. And
that could only come from your experience in the house. I mean,
And this guy killed that. I mean he just literally took that possibility
of DeFeo not sitting in jail for no and I shouldn't say for
no reason but for no good purpose. And he belongs in jail
don't misunderstand but a mental jail. One where he can get
ART BELL: Yeah. I understand. And we're so short
on time. First-time caller line, very quickly. You're on the air
with George Lutz. Do you have a question? Hello? Going once. Going
twice. Gone. Wild card line, you're on the line with George Lutz.
Do you have a question?
ART BELL: Yes.
CALLER: Okay. I wanna ask him if the proof of
his personal proof of evil in his life has resulted in really
a personal proof of goodness? I mean...
ART BELL: Oh no, I think that's a good question.
I think we answered it the other way around. But really, George,
the fact that you experienced that evil validates the fact that
there's good as well, right?
Father Ray taught me something very interesting, that at first
almost sounded sacrilegious in a way. It sounded weird. He said,
"You know the thing about prayer is that it makes God say 'yes'
when he had said 'no' all along."
ART BELL: Umm, that answers it, I guess. East
of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Lutz. Hi.
CALLER: Hi. Do you think that your wife you
mentioned that she looked almost like a crone for once or twice
or several times. Do you think did she realize that change was
taking place, or was that just in your eyes that that happened?
No, no she realized it. She could look in a mirror, and when
her Mom was there, it was even it was worse.
ART BELL: Yeah, remember, sir, her mother saw
this as well. It wasn't just George. Right?
CALLER: Okay, thank you.
ART BELL: You're very welcome. West of the Rockies,
you're on the air with George Lutz. Do you have a question?
CALLER: Yes, hello?
ART BELL: Hello.
CALLER: Art Bell, this is my last farewell. I'm
a great fan.
ART BELL: Thank you.
CALLER: God bless you, and [off-topic talk excised]
And first and foremost, I heard a rumor that the property has
a history of some kind of Indian burial ground, or some kind of...
ART BELL: Oh yes!
CALLER: That the ground, itself, was either sacred,
or it had some kind of Indian connotation.
ART BELL: I actually heard a rumor that some
Indian artifact, or skull, even, had been found at that property.
Is there any truth to any of that, George, that you're aware of?
When we first visited the Amityville Historical Society, we obtained
maps and all kinds of information that we turned over to Anson.
That included that area as having been a place where there were
Indians buried, and that they were their insane ones, they didn't
know what to do with, were there was even a rumor at the time,
and printed in some of the stuff in the Historical Society, that
said they were chained to trees and left to die there. Not the
nicest of circumstances by any means.
When the Amityville story was published, all of a sudden the Historical
Society secreted that information away. We have, through other
people, have been in contact with previous curators that know
of this, and are willing to talk about it. But as far as the town
is concerned, and the Amityville Historical Society no, that
was never true.
What happened later was and I was still talking about some of
Weber Weber invited Hans Holzer to come in and investigate the
house. Now [Weber] is on shows like Joel Martin's saying, you
know, this whole thing's a hoax. But then he's calling up Hans
Holzer to go in and verify that the house is haunted. Pretty weird
stuff when you put the two things together why is this guy double-dealing
ART BELL: How does the town of Amityville now
handle all of this, I mean since.
GEORGE LUTZ: Well they're not gonna shut Holzer
up, and Holzer says, without a doubt, what happened there with
Ethyl Johnson Meyers when she went in trance was there's an Indian
chief and he's quite angry and he's not gonna go away until some
things are restored back the way he thinks they should be.
Now I don't know about that. I wasn't there. I didn't own the
house at the time. Weber made arrangements to go in with the bank,
because we had given it back to the bank by then. The Historical
Society has basically covered it up, from what I can determine.
From what anyone else can determine since then.
ART BELL: In your opinion. But now the town of
Amityville I mean they must have a Chamber of Commerce there
in Amityville. How do they...
Well we've never been their favorite people, that's for sure.
ART BELL: No, huh? Alright. Wild card line, you're
on the air with George Lutz. Hello?
CALLER: Lee, I just wanted you're obviously
right about giving Art the respect he's due. I'm honored he took
my call. I just wanna say, Lee, this whole experience is obviously
very personal to you, but as I heard and I listened very intently
to Art's whole interview with you I was kinda shocked when you
got to the part where you said you and Kathy weren't together
anymore. And I was wondering if you can say when you divorced
and why if it had anything to do with this, or her turning into
an old woman. It just seemed kind of odd...
Her turning into an old woman didn't have anything to do with
ART BELL: Yeah, but did the half-life of what
happened, and still maybe in some way, present do you think
that had anything to do with it, George?
GEORGE LUTZ: The reasons we got divorced are
really personal. We went in separate directions with regards to
our own personal lives and religion. Our main interests and
we still talk is the kids and their lives. And we're both very
proud of our kids all five of them and we went on and had
two more children after we left. Three of my daughters today are
ART BELL: Isn't that something!
GEORGE LUTZ: We couldn't be prouder of them.
And so, the reasons we got divorced they are our own reasons
they're not something for the public but we really just did
go in separate ways.
ART BELL: And you don't think any of there
was any residual effect that I mean sometimes its really hard
to know what drives something. But you think it had really nothing
to do with it. Is that right?
No, its not right. I will say this much we disagreed about exposing
the house, in that my own thoughts are, and my own belief is,
that whatever exposes what went on there; whatever gets people
to talk about this as a real problem that exists in the world
that's shoved under the carpet every moment that it possibly
can be, and in all kinds of ways and with all kinds of confusion
it should be exposed. As far as Kathy is concerned, her point
is that she only wants to deal with the non-fiction part and does
not believe that fiction also helps to do that. So we differ right
there and that wasn't the reason we got divorced, but when it
comes to the house and disagreeing about some things afterwards,
then that's part of it.
ART BELL: So there's really no part of all this
that has not affected your life, is there?
[laughs] Yeah, I guess you can say that.
ART BELL: Even through your cold and all that,
you've still got a good sense of humor, George. Listen, we're
out of time. I really don't know how to thank you for coming and
giving me this interview toward the end of my time on the air,
permanently, anyway. So George, thank you.
Art, thank you for having me on, and anyone that's interested
in any more that they would like to find out about this, Lou
Gentile Show lougentile.com
has an archive up for a whole Amityville Week that we did earlier
this year. So that might help also.
ART BELL: Alright, my friend. I appreciate the
interview, I appreciate how candid you have been, and take care
GEORGE LUTZ: I wish you well, and I'll send you
what you asked for.
ART BELL: Thank you.