JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

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jimmysmokes
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by jimmysmokes » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:25 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:39 pm
I wasn't "flying off the handle," but I realize it's hard to judge someone's temperament via the written word.

It was just that you keep asking me variations of the same f*cking question, and it's irritating. It makes it seem like you are a troll, just here to play your silly games.


jimmysmokes wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:26 pm
you've spent years trying to oppose the debunkers and skeptics with your original claims jargon and your own break-downs of trying to keep the arguments in favor of the Lutzes, etc.
You are forgetting two of my main "breakdowns" which actually go the other way. I have spent a lot of time debunking the ghost boy photo, and I have spent a lot of time saying how I feel the Warrens were frauds.

Both of those go AGAINST the haunting (or, as you put it, "the Lutzes, etc"). But since that doesn't fit into your argument, you conveniently overlook them.


jimmysmokes wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:26 pm
that's the problem with fence-sitters! Even with ALL the info and "FACTS" they have to dig into, they still remain uncertain about what they believe or are trying to pass off as "truth". They slip up and the cracks start appearing and that's where I come in. No doubt about it.
And there we have it again. Once more, you claim that I am trying to push some sort of agenda upon everyone. Damn. It's getting old, dude. You keep coming back with the same bullsh*t, over and over.

I am here to find out the truth. Unfortunately, I realize that this is most like impossible (how does one prove a haunting was real when we can't even prove that ghosts are real?) Sound familiar? Should be. I've probably told this to you a few times already.

A lot of what I argue about does seem to typically be about the various hoax claims against the Lutzes. Of which, the majority seem to be hastily thought-out and downright stupid. But if you'll notice, a lot of times, I'm simply responding with "well, George said this about that." That's just me giving the other side of the story. If you want to believe it or not, whatever.

Again, to me, the name "Truth Board" means "uncovering the truth." That's why I put the silhouette of Sherlock Holmes in the logo, to give folks the idea that we are here to investigate the stories. "Truth" doesn't mean "I'm here to tell you the truth and you're gonna shut up and listen." I mean, yeah, if I believe something, I'll argue my case. But that doesn't mean I'm the final word on anything (nor do I pretend to be)...
No I'm not playing games dude, I'm serious. And no I didn't overlook your ghostie boy debunking or saying the Warrens were frauds. You do put forth some truth I'll admit.

I'd like to hear of some of the hoax claims you find hastily thought out or stupid.

No I don't believe you're trying to force us to believe anything in here but you do have your views & "beliefs", I guess, so I'll respond to some of them if need be. Besides, you and Mr. Sherb are top dogs in here. I come in here for you two. If I can't get you two out of hibernation, I'm not doing something right :o

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Bodie_Rose
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:39 am

Oops double post somehow
Last edited by Bodie_Rose on Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:41 am

What I'm not sure I understand is this:

A belief that the Warrens were frauds and that the ghostie boy is nothing more than a researcher damages the credibility of the Lutz claims.

The credibility of the Warrens conclusions becomes absolute zero, and even worse makes George Lutz look like a liar.
Because he said, on many occasions that Missy identified the figure in the picture as a little boy ghost/demon/thing she played with in the house.

This obviously is not true and it's very obviously not a little boy. Didn't George even tastelessly (a rather disgusting, hypocritical act from a man who was so against exploitation of himself and his own family... but the DeFeos were fair game it seems) whip out an autopsy photo no less of one of the DeFeo boys to suggest that is who the ghostie boy was?

How do the these beliefs reconcile with each other? Because in my mind there's no way they can.

If someone believes the Warrens were frauds that makes their conclusions and claims about Amityville completely invalid.
If you (rightfully) believe there is no ghostie boy in that picture then George's claims about it have to be a lie.

I don't know... maybe it's a lot like you find with a lot of "true" stories, a mixture of truth, embellishment and outright falsehoods. But even ONE lie can damage the credibility of everything else.

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Amit Y Ville » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:00 am

I didn't realise if you believe something and it turns out to be false it makes you a liar. But there ya go.
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Bodie_Rose
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:41 am

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:00 am
I didn't realise if you believe something and it turns out to be false it makes you a liar. But there ya go.
That's not what I even said.

George didn't say he believed it was a little boy "ghost" his step-daughter played with. His claim was always that she told him it was. There's a difference between portraying something as a belief and something as a fact.
The problem is it cannot be a true statement, based on what we now know

I think the photo has been thoroughly debunked at this point, and accepted by most around here that it was a researcher?

So the thing is... somebody is not telling the truth about the origin of the photo. It can't be both, can it?
Also it's incredibly hard to believe that this supposed ghostly image was missed by everyone involved for two years, because it's claimed the ghost boy wasn't noticed for that long.
I call BS on that one, because what kind of incompetent, shoddy investigators were they to apparently miss such an apparently striking thing? Unless, of course, they knew exactly what it really showed in the first place.

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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by sherbetbizarre » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:20 pm

Bodie_Rose wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:41 am
I call BS on that one, because what kind of incompetent, shoddy investigators were they to apparently miss such an apparently striking thing? Unless, of course, they knew exactly what it really showed in the first place.
Yeah, the belief is they knew it was Bartz, so never mentioned it... Then two years later Lutzes secretary notices this strange "person", George shows Missy, and Missy says "that's the little boy who played in my room."

To my mind this could have been mistaken identity on her part - the image is not entirely clear, and appears to show a small person in her doorway.

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Bodie_Rose
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:05 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:20 pm
Bodie_Rose wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:41 am
I call BS on that one, because what kind of incompetent, shoddy investigators were they to apparently miss such an apparently striking thing? Unless, of course, they knew exactly what it really showed in the first place.
Yeah, the belief is they knew it was Bartz, so never mentioned it... Then two years later Lutzes secretary notices this strange "person", George shows Missy, and Missy says "that's the little boy who played in my room."

To my mind this could have been mistaken identity on her part - the image is not entirely clear, and appears to show a small person in her doorway.
Perhaps but the problem I have is that it was always stated as concrete fact, not mere speculation which is at best misleading, at worst possibly a total lie.

For me the whole thing is not a case of 100% true or 100% hoax but a mixture of truths, lies and embellishments.
I've used an example elsewhere of Holocaust survivors who have spiced up their stories, possibly straight up lied and spread rumours and myths they heard as actual true events. It does damage their credibility but doesn't mean they weren't there at all or never suffered/witnessed awful things.

I think the Lutz family certainly believed something supernatural was going on in the house, but that doesn't it mean it was or that everything they say is true.

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Matt9290
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Matt9290 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 am

Bodie_Rose wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:05 am

I think the Lutz family certainly believed something supernatural was going on in the house, but that doesn't it mean it was or that everything they say is true.
Yes, I'm sure they believed the house was haunted. The flies, dark running water, smells etc... The problem is that people tend to judge their actions with today's expectations and not that of the superstitious 1970's.
Back then these things could easily have been mistaken and built upon, a little like a fisherman's story - the one that got away.
I have no doubt that the Amityville Horror is based upon a 'true' story, but it was true to them. How much of it was misinterpreted and built upon is what is debatable. Even the smallest of phenomena, such as Kathy being touched in the kitchen, would seem heightened in such an environment.
This doesn't detract from what they went through nor does it mean they were lying.
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:28 am

Matt9290 wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 am
Yes, I'm sure they believed the house was haunted. The flies, dark running water, smells etc... The problem is that people tend to judge their actions with today's expectations and not that of the superstitious 1970's.
That could be true of their first three weeks in the house... But then came the levitating, Kathy turning into a "hag", the eyes at the window, the figure in Missy's room... then it became something else.

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Matt9290
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Matt9290 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:22 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:28 am
Matt9290 wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 am
Yes, I'm sure they believed the house was haunted. The flies, dark running water, smells etc... The problem is that people tend to judge their actions with today's expectations and not that of the superstitious 1970's.
That could be true of their first three weeks in the house... But then came the levitating, Kathy turning into a "hag", the eyes at the window, the figure in Missy's room... then it became something else.
You are quite right. At that point it became a much more active haunting. Levitation and transfiguration's are not uncommon but the other phenomena, such as Jodie and the the demonic presence I suspect are more down to over active imaginations.
Again, I really don't think the Lutz family were lying. But after living three weeks in a house they believed to be haunted (which it may well have been), then under such circumstances their minds could create all sorts of demons.
Towards the end of their stay at the house I think they were jumping at shows.
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by jimmysmokes » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:39 am

What I want to know is why George was still saying up until his death that Missy said it was the little boy she used play with in the her room? He still never knew who it was? And how did Bartz get into Missy’s room to play?

Yeah yeah I know, this doesn’t mean they were lying about the house being haunted🙄

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Matt9290
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Matt9290 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:01 am

jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:39 am
What I want to know is why George was still saying up until his death that Missy said it was the little boy she used play with in the her room? He still never knew who it was? And how did Bartz get into Missy’s room to play?

Yeah yeah I know, this doesn’t mean they were lying about the house being haunted🙄
How old was Missy when this took place - about 5? I'm not sure I'd be willing to base my argument on a five year old's recollections.
I can't even remember being that age?
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by jimmysmokes » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:36 am

I’m talking about George and his passing this off until his death. Furthermore I don’t believe this came from Missy but rather George who proceeded to throw it off on his five year old stepdaughter to add “credibility” to this silly pic taken by those jackleg investigators.

Just like I don’t believe the kids had anything to do with this story to begin with. They were used by George in this whole scheme, even Kathy who did play along with it. Danny and Chris have admitted to this fact all along.

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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Matt9290 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:02 am

jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:36 am
I’m talking about George and his passing this off until his death. Furthermore I don’t believe this came from Missy but rather George who proceeded to throw it off on his five year old stepdaughter to add “credibility” to this silly pic taken by those jackleg investigators.

Just like I don’t believe the kids had anything to do with this story to begin with. They were used by George in this whole scheme, even Kathy who did play along with it. Danny and Chris have admitted to this fact all along.
As much as I want to defend him, I have to concede that George must have had an inkling that it was Paul Bartz.
Not sure about Danny and Chris though. I spoke to Chris a few years ago, who claimed that George was the cause and had deliberately provoked something in the house. As there was no love lost between George and Chris - I took that with a pinch of salt.
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Bodie_Rose
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:34 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:28 am
Matt9290 wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 am
Yes, I'm sure they believed the house was haunted. The flies, dark running water, smells etc... The problem is that people tend to judge their actions with today's expectations and not that of the superstitious 1970's.
That could be true of their first three weeks in the house... But then came the levitating, Kathy turning into a "hag", the eyes at the window, the figure in Missy's room... then it became something else.
Not a single authentic case of any person levitating has been documented. Not one. No unmanipulated photographic or video evidence whatsoever.

Do you really believe two people actually levitated just because they claim they did, despite no real evidence that it even happens?

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Bodie_Rose
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:50 pm

Matt9290 wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:02 am
jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:36 am
I’m talking about George and his passing this off until his death. Furthermore I don’t believe this came from Missy but rather George who proceeded to throw it off on his five year old stepdaughter to add “credibility” to this silly pic taken by those jackleg investigators.

Just like I don’t believe the kids had anything to do with this story to begin with. They were used by George in this whole scheme, even Kathy who did play along with it. Danny and Chris have admitted to this fact all along.
As much as I want to defend him, I have to concede that George must have had an inkling that it was Paul Bartz.
Not sure about Danny and Chris though. I spoke to Chris a few years ago, who claimed that George was the cause and had deliberately provoked something in the house. As there was no love lost between George and Chris - I took that with a pinch of salt.
It has a definite ring of plausibility to me.

I understand there was no love lost between both boys and George, but I wouldn't dismiss that animosity the way you seem to. There's obviously a good reason for it and it isn't too far fetched that maybe George's reasons for buying that house was because of and not despite the horrific murders.
The scenes of brutal murder and bloodshed are often considered great places for seeking out ghosts and paranormal activity.

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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Brooke Forrester » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:11 pm

Bodie_Rose wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:50 pm
Matt9290 wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:02 am
jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:36 am
I’m talking about George and his passing this off until his death. Furthermore I don’t believe this came from Missy but rather George who proceeded to throw it off on his five year old stepdaughter to add “credibility” to this silly pic taken by those jackleg investigators.

Just like I don’t believe the kids had anything to do with this story to begin with. They were used by George in this whole scheme, even Kathy who did play along with it. Danny and Chris have admitted to this fact all along.
As much as I want to defend him, I have to concede that George must have had an inkling that it was Paul Bartz.
Not sure about Danny and Chris though. I spoke to Chris a few years ago, who claimed that George was the cause and had deliberately provoked something in the house. As there was no love lost between George and Chris - I took that with a pinch of salt.
It has a definite ring of plausibility to me.

I understand there was no love lost between both boys and George, but I wouldn't dismiss that animosity the way you seem to. There's obviously a good reason for it and it isn't too far fetched that maybe George's reasons for buying that house was because of and not despite the horrific murders.
The scenes of brutal murder and bloodshed are often considered great places for seeking out ghosts and paranormal activity.
I’ve wondered if he might have actually been interested in the occult and bought it for that reason, thinking it might be haunted. I have heard people say they thought it would be fun to live in a haunted house.

Also, in Stephen Kaplan’s book, he said George admitted he knew Ray Buckland, a prominent witch in the area. I don’t know if George disputed that but if it’s true, that is interesting.

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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by sherbetbizarre » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:27 am

Brooke Forrester wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:11 pm
Also, in Stephen Kaplan’s book, he said George admitted he knew Ray Buckland, a prominent witch in the area. I don’t know if George disputed that but if it’s true, that is interesting.
George tells Kaplan he visited Buckland's museum after leaving the house...

But Kaplan writes in his book: "I am getting more suspicious by the minute. Didn’t George just tell me he knew nothing of the occult up until the past two months? Ray Buckland had been gone from New York for a year or two now. That would mean George had discussed “the craft,” as it is called, with one of the most knowledgeable witches in the country long before he bought the house; actually even before he married Kathy."

Not sure I trust Kaplan's memory of this conversation, as he's writing the book years afterwards.

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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:11 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:27 am
Brooke Forrester wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:11 pm
Also, in Stephen Kaplan’s book, he said George admitted he knew Ray Buckland, a prominent witch in the area. I don’t know if George disputed that but if it’s true, that is interesting.
George tells Kaplan he visited Buckland's museum after leaving the house...

But Kaplan writes in his book: "I am getting more suspicious by the minute. Didn’t George just tell me he knew nothing of the occult up until the past two months? Ray Buckland had been gone from New York for a year or two now. That would mean George had discussed “the craft,” as it is called, with one of the most knowledgeable witches in the country long before he bought the house; actually even before he married Kathy."

Not sure I trust Kaplan's memory of this conversation, as he's writing the book years afterwards.
You got a quote for George stating to Kaplan his visit was afterwards?
I've heard the claim that it was before from numerous sources, not just Kaplan.

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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by sherbetbizarre » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:32 pm

Bodie_Rose wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:11 am
You got a quote for George stating to Kaplan his visit was afterwards?
I've heard the claim that it was before from numerous sources, not just Kaplan.
Kaplan doesn't say either way.

Don't recall George saying it was before...

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Bodie_Rose
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Re: JimmySmokes thread of Going Nowhere...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:10 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:32 pm
Bodie_Rose wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:11 am
You got a quote for George stating to Kaplan his visit was afterwards?
I've heard the claim that it was before from numerous sources, not just Kaplan.
Kaplan doesn't say either way.

Don't recall George saying it was before...
Where did he say it was before, if not to Kaplan?

Your comment seemed to imply George told him it was an after visit but he still wrote it as a before visit?

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