some question i wanna ask...

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thanh03041993
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some question i wanna ask...

Post by thanh03041993 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:38 am

HI all, I'm sure some of you veteran amityvillers can answer these for me!!

1, I think I read somewhere that Kathy Lutz sadly died 2004. Is it true, also I remember reading that she felt the 'demon' was with her all the rest of her life. Is this also true? Did Kathy & George divorce? Was it over the amityville case? Does George still feel the demon is around him too?

2, Has George ever been back to the house since he left that fateful day? Would he go back now if he could or would he be too scared? - it would be interesting to see if anything 'kicked off' in the house if he went there

3, If the new owners are so sure that nothing is still there why don't they allow one final investigation with proper, professional people, the recording equipment & investigative equipment is much more sophisticated now surely. This may finally put the case to rest & then they will be left alone there

Phew - a lot I know but they are just things that are floating around my head!!

Thanks in advance :wink:

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Brendan72
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Brendan72 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:17 am

Welcome to the board.
thanh03041993 wrote: 1, I think I read somewhere that Kathy Lutz sadly died 2004. Is it true, also I remember reading that she felt the 'demon' was with her all the rest of her life. Is this also true? Did Kathy & George divorce? Was it over the amityville case? Does George still feel the demon is around him too?


Kathy passed away from valley fever in 2004. She had been suffering from this illness for a number of years. The best way to get an insight into what Kathy experienced would be to watch her in the History's Mysteries documentaries made in 2000. As far as Kathy and George's divorce was concerned and any connection to the haunting ... I cannot comment as it was something personal between George and Kathy. Also with George's comments on the experiences then for the rest of his life you should also listen to the interviews of which links are supplied here. George would not be able to comment today as he passed away in 2006.
thanh03041993 wrote: 12, Has George ever been back to the house since he left that fateful day? Would he go back now if he could or would he be too scared? - it would be interesting to see if anything 'kicked off' in the house if he went there


George said he went back once with a 'Dr Heffernan' who said he could "smell flowers" and claimed it meant the house was cleansed . I think George said he wasn't fully convinced of the house being cleansed based on Heffernan's statement. I do not know when this visit occurred. George never actually stepped into the house again since they fled in 1976. His visit with Heffernan presumably was on the perimeter of the property considering it was private property.
thanh03041993 wrote:3, If the new owners are so sure that nothing is still there why don't they allow one final investigation with proper, professional people, the recording equipment & investigative equipment is much more sophisticated now surely. This may finally put the case to rest & then they will be left alone there


We do not know of any experiences by owners of the house following the Lutz's, though we can only speculate. To our knowledge there has been no investigation since the one on March 6, 1976 (by the Warrens) or on January 14, 1977 (by Prof Hans Holzer). Given the amount of negative and unwanted media and public attention over the last 40 years I am extremely dubious as to whether any investigation (if any) has occurred, or will occur in the future if it was allowed.
- Brendan72

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin. Comedian. (1937-2008)

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DC Fan
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by DC Fan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:52 am

thanh03041993 wrote: If the new owners are so sure that nothing is still there why don't they allow one final investigation with proper, professional people, the recording equipment & investigative equipment is much more sophisticated now surely. This may finally put the case to rest & then they will be left alone there
If I may play Devil's advocate for a minute here:

1. The idea that it would put anything to rest is debatable at best. The Cromarty's already tried to convince the world of it just being another ordinary house. They appeared on an episode of That's Incredible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmW7tSmmY&t=406s

2. They more than likely do not share your belief that psychic investigators engage in any kind of science or that they constitute "professional people".

3. They probably take the position that they should not have to shoulder a burden of proof regarding a private home that they have the courage to inhabit.

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Bodie_Rose
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Bodie_Rose » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:46 am

DC Fan wrote:
thanh03041993 wrote: If the new owners are so sure that nothing is still there why don't they allow one final investigation with proper, professional people, the recording equipment & investigative equipment is much more sophisticated now surely. This may finally put the case to rest & then they will be left alone there
If I may play Devil's advocate for a minute here:

1. The idea that it would put anything to rest is debatable at best. The Cromarty's already tried to convince the world of it just being another ordinary house. They appeared on an episode of That's Incredible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmW7tSmmY&t=406s

2. They more than likely do not share your belief that psychic investigators engage in any kind of science or that they constitute "professional people".

3. They probably take the position that they should not have to shoulder a burden of proof regarding a private home that they have the courage to inhabit.
Totally agree with this.

Also, any new investigation would only draw more attention to the house and the town.

The Cromarty's seem to get a lot of criticism for going public, but I really feel for them. When they bought the house, the haunting story had pretty much died down and they had no idea what was about to hit them. I don't think they really had a choice to go public either, the attention came to THEM. Their house became the focus of a massive s***storm of gawkers and media attention and I think anyone in their position would have tried desperately to defend their home and themselves.

jimmysmokes
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by jimmysmokes » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:42 pm

What the hell would they have to investigate?

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Brendan72
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Brendan72 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:13 pm

Bodie_Rose wrote: Totally agree with this.

Also, any new investigation would only draw more attention to the house and the town.

The Cromarty's seem to get a lot of criticism for going public, but I really feel for them. When they bought the house, the haunting story had pretty much died down and they had no idea what was about to hit them. I don't think they really had a choice to go public either, the attention came to THEM. Their house became the focus of a massive s***storm of gawkers and media attention and I think anyone in their position would have tried desperately to defend their home and themselves.
Unfortunately over the years the Amityville haunting has been largely black and white in terms of pro-haunting or hoax.

So when someone would comment that perhaps the Cromarty's had a legitimate issue invasion of privacy you would on one hand have some haunting advocates say "why did you buy that house if you knew the history of the property?" while it validated people claiming it was a hoax when the Cromarty's would go public and say nothing was wrong with the house.

It is important to think that yes maybe the Cromarty's did have a valid issue with invasion of privacy whether they knew the house's history before buying or not. You could agree with them in this respect while still having a belief that the haunting was real or thinking it was a hoax. It should not compromise one's belief in either side of the spectrum.

Alternatively I can understand if someone who owned the house after the Lutz's did have experiences, why it would not be made public. They could see what it did to the Lutz's and err on the side of caution. How successfully it would remain private on the other hand can be the subject of much speculation. So if any results of such an investigation revealed anything it also would not be made public.
- Brendan72

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin. Comedian. (1937-2008)

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DC Fan
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by DC Fan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:25 am

Brendan72 wrote:Alternatively I can understand if someone who owned the house after the Lutz's did have experiences, why it would not be made public. They could see what it did to the Lutz's and err on the side of caution. How successfully it would remain private on the other hand can be the subject of much speculation. So if any results of such an investigation revealed anything it also would not be made public.
Even if the results were to be made public it wouldn't change opinions, just like the polygraphs that George and Kathy took didn't change anyone's opinion. So yes, there is logically that element that a new owner having an investigation conducted would be doing it for his own purposes. I just would add here my suspicion that any subsequent owner who may end up convinced that he is potentially risking levitation and physical assault would want to leave.

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Brendan72
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Brendan72 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:24 am

DC Fan wrote:
Brendan72 wrote:Alternatively I can understand if someone who owned the house after the Lutz's did have experiences, why it would not be made public. They could see what it did to the Lutz's and err on the side of caution. How successfully it would remain private on the other hand can be the subject of much speculation. So if any results of such an investigation revealed anything it also would not be made public.
Even if the results were to be made public it wouldn't change opinions, just like the polygraphs that George and Kathy took didn't change anyone's opinion. So yes, there is logically that element that a new owner having an investigation conducted would be doing it for his own purposes. I just would add here my suspicion that any subsequent owner who may end up convinced that he is potentially risking levitation and physical assault would want to leave.
The polygraph test is a classic example of having factors both supporting and refuting the haunting. For instance the inadmissibility in court of the polygraph is indicative, from the point of view of the hoax advocate, that it cannot truly measure whether a person is actually telling the truth so by extension does not in any way mean that George and Kathy were telling the truth. Despite the fact that both took the test and passed at the same time and it was conducted by leading experts in the field at the time. I am lead to believe that law enforcement still use it in the course of investigations with suspects.

Having said that if the polygraph was granted admissibility in a court of law and was in the 99% range of reliability it probably would not make any difference as there are individuals out there who firmly believe, for one reason or another that it is a hoax. And frankly they are entitled to their opinion just as we are to ours.
- Brendan72

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin. Comedian. (1937-2008)

jimmysmokes
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by jimmysmokes » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:57 am

The polygraph and its tests aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

http://skepdic.com/polygrap.html

Nice little vid at the bottom of this article also! Try again boys...

Victoria Principles
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Victoria Principles » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:39 pm

jimmysmokes wrote:The polygraph and its tests aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

http://skepdic.com/polygrap.html

Nice little vid at the bottom of this article also! Try again boys...
Neither is the paper you roll your stash with.

jimmysmokes
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by jimmysmokes » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:11 pm

Victoria Principles wrote:
jimmysmokes wrote:The polygraph and its tests aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

http://skepdic.com/polygrap.html

Nice little vid at the bottom of this article also! Try again boys...
Neither is the paper you roll your stash with.
Or the paper you wipe with

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Brendan72
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Brendan72 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:00 am

jimmysmokes wrote:
Victoria Principles wrote:
jimmysmokes wrote:The polygraph and its tests aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

http://skepdic.com/polygrap.html

Nice little vid at the bottom of this article also! Try again boys...
Neither is the paper you roll your stash with.
Or the paper you wipe with
That is a lot to absorb :)
- Brendan72

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin. Comedian. (1937-2008)

jimmysmokes
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by jimmysmokes » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:05 am

It must be a terrible mess of bs she has to clean

Victoria Principles
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Victoria Principles » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:21 am

jimmysmokes wrote:It must be a terrible mess of bs she has to clean

Does your mommy clean up your basement bedroom after you smoke through your stash?

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vomit
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by vomit » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:34 pm

Victoria Principles wrote:
jimmysmokes wrote:It must be a terrible mess of bs she has to clean

Does your mommy clean up your basement bedroom after you smoke through your stash?
Can't we all just get along?
"In the Spring, we'd make meat helmets."
Dr. Evil

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Amit Y Ville » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:28 pm

Classic :clap:
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

kathyM
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by kathyM » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:28 pm

The usual, same, old, same old. :(

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Dan the Damned
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Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Dan the Damned » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:11 pm

The following posts were deleted from this thread due to an accident:




daiichi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:39 pm
At most, the polygraph tells us that George and Kathy believed the house was haunted, but I think we can all agree that just because a person believes something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's true!

For instance, you could hook the wires up to a kid and ask him if the tooth fairy exists, and he'll tell you with full conviction that yes, she does in fact exist. And there's even proof. He left a tooth under his pillow and the next day there was a dollar bill! That kid will pass the test with flying colors. So there you go Tooth Fairy deniers... irrefutable proof that the Tooth Fairy does exist!

The point is, the polygraph machine is not some wondrous device that will magically separate truth from fiction. If they genuinely believed the house was haunted, then they should pass the test. Does that mean it's all true? Of course not!






Dan the Damned wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:41 pm
daiichi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:39 pm
I think we can all agree that just because a person believes something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's true!
Do you mean the events, themselves? Or the cause behind the events?








daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:49 am
Dan the Damned wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:41 pm
Do you mean the events, themselves? Or the cause behind the events?
I'm saying some of the events may have truly happened. Such as the flies, stained toilets, bathroom that smells like perfume, window dropping on Danny's hand, etc.

But I don't believe George and Kathy's interpretation of these events as paranormal in nature. I basically categorize the Lutz claims into two categories. The first category are the mundane events. In addition to the events above, I'd also include the following to this list:
  • Their dog doesn't want to go inside a certain room in their new house
  • George feels angry sometimes
  • George and Kathy have arguments
  • Kathy's sister-in-law likes to play with the kids a lot
  • Kathy gets a headache
  • Their 5-year-old says and does silly things
  • There's something on the floor that they can't readily identify
  • George likes to show visitors his new house and boat too much
  • George and Kathy like to stay inside and don't go out a lot
  • George is being lazy and not going to work
  • George likes to play with the new fireplace

The list could go on and on. All of these things probably DID happen. But nothing there seems particularly strange to me. And I realize that George and Kathy didn't necessarily claim that all of them had a paranormal explanation, but that was essentially the assumption they made.

So then the other category includes the wilder claims. Like Kathy levitating, turning into a 90-year-old woman. Or the ghostie marching bands. I don't believe these events actually happened. At least how George and Kathy claimed. At most, there may be a kernel of truth to them.

But George and Kathy seem to believe they happened, so they're not necessarily "lying".

But they may be embellishing. I've known several people in my life like this. Relatives, friends, co-workers. I'm sure everyone has heard of a "fish tale". People exaggerate when telling stories. They do it for various reasons: attention, financial gain, or simply boredom. Sometimes they don't even realize that they're doing it. That's human nature. And some people do it more than others. Where I come from, we call these people "bullshitters". Did George and Kathy have a bit of bullshitter in them? I think so. Again, that's not saying they're bad people. I would have loved to share a pot of George's coffee with him and listen to his stories.







daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:22 am
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09 am
The willful ignorance is strong with this one. You're not fooling anybody you really think a claim of a headache was classed as a paranormal event. You can't be this stupid, can you?
I quote from the Good Housekeeping article, when George began his DIY "house cleansing" ritual:
[...] as soon as he started the ritual, Kathy began to suffer from a severe headache.
So why mention it at all, if not to infer an association with the paranormal?

If you have a legit counter-argument to my conclusions, I'd love to hear it. But I've noticed a pattern of you popping into threads to slander or attack others for having different opinions about the supposed haunting. I don't mind and I welcome any feedback to my postings, but maybe you could try to put a little more effort into your rebuttals?






Dan the Damned wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:50 am
daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:49 am
So then the other category includes the wilder claims. Like Kathy levitating, turning into a 90-year-old woman. Or the ghostie marching bands. I don't believe these events actually happened. At least how George and Kathy claimed. At most, there may be a kernel of truth to them.

But George and Kathy seem to believe they happened, so they're not necessarily "lying".

But they may be embellishing.
But we're talking about a polygraph test. Embellishing is the same as lying. The machine would catch that.






DC Fan wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:26 am
Not when they ask specific yes or no questions such as whether or not Kathy levitated.








Dan the Damned wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:58 am
Even if it's a yes or no question, the polygraph test results said they were being truthful when asked if they levitated at Kathy's mom's house. So it's not a case of embellishment being the difference between whether the event took place or not.





daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:04 pm
DC Fan wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:26 am
Not when they ask specific yes or no questions such as whether or not Kathy levitated.
Yes, precisely. As far as I know, we don't have any insight into what the polygraph operators asked George and Kathy (if anyone knows, I would be happy to see it). But since the tests operate on a "yes" or "no" basis, they may have asked him something like that. George could have answered yes, and if he believed that it really happened, then he would pass that question.

How high Kathy floated may not have been of significant importance to George. Just the fact that it happened, or at least he BELIEVED it happened. Perhaps it was a few inches. Or it was a few feet. Perhaps he believed both versions, depending on his recollection of events on any given day. It's important to remember that George retold this story countless times over the course of 30 years. Human memory can be tricky and unreliable, and it's entirely possible that as time went on, he embellished certain details and didn't even realize that he was doing it.







sherbetbizarre wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:48 am
daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:04 pm
As far as I know, we don't have any insight into what the polygraph operators asked George and Kathy (if anyone knows, I would be happy to see it).
A scan of the results used to be online... but not anymore?

Here's a scan of the original newspaper article, which also lists the questions -

http://www.amityvillefaq.com/research/1 ... r)_FOLDER/















Dan the Damned wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:18 pm
The polygraph is a tool. It is not a foolproof device which lights up when someone tells a lie. It is a tool which shows the operator when a subject's heartbeat or breathing, etc, changes or becomes erratic when they are asked certain questions. That doesn't necessarily mean "that's a lie," but it could be an indication.

The polygraph is only as good as the person administrating the test.

The Lutzes' tests were performed by Chris Gugas and Michael Rice, who were top experts in the field.

Chris Gugas said, "..what we derive by means of the polygraph is not truth, but the evidence of non-truth. Deception, then, with its subsequent admission by the subject, is as far as our technology can go, even now. Evidence of truth is gathered from the absence of tracings that suggest deception."
sherbetbizarre wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:48 am
A scan of the results used to be online... but not anymore?
I was thinking the same thing. I could have sworn we had them available here, but couldn't find it. I think it resided on George's website (which itself has disappeared).








msmart112 wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:14 am
Image

Image

Image






jimmysmokes wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:37 am
https://elastic.org/~fche/mirrors/antip ... tector.pdf

Skip to page 22 and let's take a look at what Dr. Drew Richardson (Supervisory Special Agent-FBI) top expert says about the polygraph. The three points listed will show you that the tests administered aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

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