some question i wanna ask...

General Discussion About Anything Amityville And Other Paranormal Topics
User avatar
Amit Y Ville
Streaming on Twitch from the red room
Posts: 718

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Amit Y Ville » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09 am

daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:49 am
Dan the Damned wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:41 pm
Do you mean the events, themselves? Or the cause behind the events?
I'm saying some of the events may have truly happened. Such as the flies, stained toilets, bathroom that smells like perfume, window dropping on Danny's hand, etc.

But I don't believe George and Kathy's interpretation of these events as paranormal in nature. I basically categorize the Lutz claims into two categories. The first category are the mundane events. In addition to the events above, I'd also include the following to this list:
  • Their dog doesn't want to go inside a certain room in their new house
  • George feels angry sometimes
  • George and Kathy have arguments
  • Kathy's sister-in-law likes to play with the kids a lot
  • Kathy gets a headache
  • Their 5-year-old says and does silly things
  • There's something on the floor that they can't readily identify
  • George likes to show visitors his new house and boat too much
  • George and Kathy like to stay inside and don't go out a lot
  • George is being lazy and not going to work
  • George likes to play with the new fireplace

The list could go on and on. All of these things probably DID happen. But nothing there seems particularly strange to me. And I realize that George and Kathy didn't necessarily claim that all of them had a paranormal explanation, but that was essentially the assumption they made.

So then the other category includes the wilder claims. Like Kathy levitating, turning into a 90-year-old woman. Or the ghostie marching bands. I don't believe these events actually happened. At least how George and Kathy claimed. At most, there may be a kernel of truth to them.

But George and Kathy seem to believe they happened, so they're not necessarily "lying".

But they may be embellishing. I've known several people in my life like this. Relatives, friends, co-workers. I'm sure everyone has heard of a "fish tale". People exaggerate when telling stories. They do it for various reasons: attention, financial gain, or simply boredom. Sometimes they don't even realize that they're doing it. That's human nature. And some people do it more than others. Where I come from, we call these people "bullshitters". Did George and Kathy have a bit of bullshitter in them? I think so. Again, that's not saying they're bad people. I would have loved to share a pot of George's coffee with him and listen to his stories.
The willful ignorance is strong with this one. You're not fooling anybody you really think a claim of a headache was classed as a paranormal event. You can't be this stupid, can you?
Had to have high, high hopes for a living - Panic! At The Disco

User avatar
daiichi
Amityville Member
Posts: 76

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by daiichi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:22 am

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09 am
The willful ignorance is strong with this one. You're not fooling anybody you really think a claim of a headache was classed as a paranormal event. You can't be this stupid, can you?
I quote from the Good Housekeeping article, when George began his DIY "house cleansing" ritual:
[...] as soon as he started the ritual, Kathy began to suffer from a severe headache.
So why mention it at all, if not to infer an association with the paranormal?

If you have a legit counter-argument to my conclusions, I'd love to hear it. But I've noticed a pattern of you popping into threads to slander or attack others for having different opinions about the supposed haunting. I don't mind and I welcome any feedback to my postings, but maybe you could try to put a little more effort into your rebuttals?

User avatar
Dan the Damned
Lost Soul
Posts: 11904

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:50 am

daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:49 am
So then the other category includes the wilder claims. Like Kathy levitating, turning into a 90-year-old woman. Or the ghostie marching bands. I don't believe these events actually happened. At least how George and Kathy claimed. At most, there may be a kernel of truth to them.

But George and Kathy seem to believe they happened, so they're not necessarily "lying".

But they may be embellishing.
But we're talking about a polygraph test. Embellishing is the same as lying. The machine would catch that.

User avatar
Dan the Damned
Lost Soul
Posts: 11904

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:06 am

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09 am
The willful ignorance is strong with this one. You're not fooling anybody you really think a claim of a headache was classed as a paranormal event. You can't be this stupid, can you?
Amit Y Ville, you have complained to Sherb and myself, demanding action against others who are "mean" to you. But here is a prime example of you being a jerk to them. You can't have it both ways. You can't pretend to be a victim when you are doing the exact same thing.

User avatar
DC Fan
Amityville Addict
Posts: 373

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by DC Fan » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:26 am

Dan the Damned wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:50 am
daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:49 am
So then the other category includes the wilder claims. Like Kathy levitating, turning into a 90-year-old woman. Or the ghostie marching bands. I don't believe these events actually happened. At least how George and Kathy claimed. At most, there may be a kernel of truth to them.

But George and Kathy seem to believe they happened, so they're not necessarily "lying".

But they may be embellishing.
But we're talking about a polygraph test. Embellishing is the same as lying. The machine would catch that.
Not when they ask specific yes or no questions such as whether or not Kathy levitated.

User avatar
Dan the Damned
Lost Soul
Posts: 11904

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:58 am

Even if it's a yes or no question, the polygraph test results said they were being truthful when asked if they levitated at Kathy's mom's house. So it's not a case of embellishment being the difference between whether the event took place or not.

User avatar
daiichi
Amityville Member
Posts: 76

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by daiichi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:04 pm

DC Fan wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:26 am
Dan the Damned wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:50 am
daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:49 am
So then the other category includes the wilder claims. Like Kathy levitating, turning into a 90-year-old woman. Or the ghostie marching bands. I don't believe these events actually happened. At least how George and Kathy claimed. At most, there may be a kernel of truth to them.

But George and Kathy seem to believe they happened, so they're not necessarily "lying".

But they may be embellishing.
But we're talking about a polygraph test. Embellishing is the same as lying. The machine would catch that.
Not when they ask specific yes or no questions such as whether or not Kathy levitated.
Yes, precisely. As far as I know, we don't have any insight into what the polygraph operators asked George and Kathy (if anyone knows, I would be happy to see it). But since the tests operate on a "yes" or "no" basis, they may have asked him something like that. George could have answered yes, and if he believed that it really happened, then he would pass that question.

How high Kathy floated may not have been of significant importance to George. Just the fact that it happened, or at least he BELIEVED it happened. Perhaps it was a few inches. Or it was a few feet. Perhaps he believed both versions, depending on his recollection of events on any given day. It's important to remember that George retold this story countless times over the course of 30 years. Human memory can be tricky and unreliable, and it's entirely possible that as time went on, he embellished certain details and didn't even realize that he was doing it.

User avatar
Amit Y Ville
Streaming on Twitch from the red room
Posts: 718

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Amit Y Ville » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:00 pm

daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:22 am
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09 am
The willful ignorance is strong with this one. You're not fooling anybody you really think a claim of a headache was classed as a paranormal event. You can't be this stupid, can you?
I quote from the Good Housekeeping article, when George began his DIY "house cleansing" ritual:
[...] as soon as he started the ritual, Kathy began to suffer from a severe headache.
So why mention it at all, if not to infer an association with the paranormal?
You didn't say that though. You were trying to be smart claiming a headache was paranormal.

If you mentioned the ritual then that adds context behind it.
Had to have high, high hopes for a living - Panic! At The Disco

User avatar
Amit Y Ville
Streaming on Twitch from the red room
Posts: 718

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Amit Y Ville » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:18 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:06 am
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09 am
The willful ignorance is strong with this one. You're not fooling anybody you really think a claim of a headache was classed as a paranormal event. You can't be this stupid, can you?
Amit Y Ville, you have complained to Sherb and myself, demanding action against others who are "mean" to you. But here is a prime example of you being a jerk to them. You can't have it both ways. You can't pretend to be a victim when you are doing the exact same thing.
Asking a question is not mean. Especially when said posters idea was to undermine and slander the Lutz's and make out they were idiots in a willfully ignorant way. Asking that person if they really thought it was smart was very fair. Again, no insults used.

As you know, those incidents I complained about were literally insulting. I've never done that and you won't find proof. So let's get that clear please. I got called names directly and to be honest you did nothing about it, and I could care less now tbh.
Had to have high, high hopes for a living - Panic! At The Disco

User avatar
daiichi
Amityville Member
Posts: 76

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by daiichi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:52 pm

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:00 pm
You didn't say that though. You were trying to be smart claiming a headache was paranormal.

If you mentioned the ritual then that adds context behind it.
George's DIY cleansing ritual is essentially immaterial to this discussion, because either:

A) You believe a headache can have supernatural origins.
B) You don't.

Kathy was the one who suggested that her headache was supernatural, not me. Which is why I included it on my list.

User avatar
Amit Y Ville
Streaming on Twitch from the red room
Posts: 718

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Amit Y Ville » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:45 am

daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:52 pm
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:00 pm
You didn't say that though. You were trying to be smart claiming a headache was paranormal.

If you mentioned the ritual then that adds context behind it.
George's DIY cleansing ritual is essentially immaterial to this discussion, because either:

A) You believe a headache can have supernatural origins.
B) You don't.

Kathy was the one who suggested that her headache was supernatural, not me. Which is why I included it on my list.
My point was proved then, she got a headache during a ritual, which makes more sense than when not. Why would she not mention this?
Had to have high, high hopes for a living - Panic! At The Disco

User avatar
daiichi
Amityville Member
Posts: 76

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by daiichi » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:00 am

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:45 am
My point was proved then, she got a headache during a ritual, which makes more sense than when not. Why would she not mention this?
The point I was making earlier in this thread is that the headache is one of many events told by George and Kathy that -- to a skeptic like me -- appear to be rather unremarkable and can be explained by other factors which are completely normal.

Hence, my mission here isn't to do an in-depth analysis of Kathy's headache, and the context in which it occurred for the sake of proving whether it had ghostly origins or not. Millions of people suffer from headaches each and every day. Often, they come and go for no particular reason. How many of these headaches do you suppose are caused by ghosts or evil spirits? I would posit zero.

User avatar
Amit Y Ville
Streaming on Twitch from the red room
Posts: 718

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Amit Y Ville » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:21 am

daiichi wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:00 am
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:45 am
My point was proved then, she got a headache during a ritual, which makes more sense than when not. Why would she not mention this?
The point I was making earlier in this thread is that the headache is one of many events told by George and Kathy that -- to a skeptic like me -- appear to be rather unremarkable and can be explained by other factors which are completely normal.

Hence, my mission here isn't to do an in-depth analysis of Kathy's headache, and the context in which it occurred for the sake of proving whether it had ghostly origins or not. Millions of people suffer from headaches each and every day. Often, they come and go for no particular reason. How many of these headaches do you suppose are caused by ghosts or evil spirits? I would posit zero.
Have you done a ritual in the Amityville house or similar?
Had to have high, high hopes for a living - Panic! At The Disco

User avatar
daiichi
Amityville Member
Posts: 76

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by daiichi » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:40 am

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:21 am
Have you done a ritual in the Amityville house or similar?
One time, years ago. Brian Wilson let me inside and we played some Beach Boys records while we carried out a DIY spirit cleansing of our own. I didn't get a headache, but I did get a little gassy. Maybe it was ghosts, or just the Taco Bell I ate earlier that day. Upon leaving the bathroom, I noticed that the toilet bowl was stained and there was a pungent odor emanating from it. Perhaps more evidence of the paranormal?

User avatar
Amit Y Ville
Streaming on Twitch from the red room
Posts: 718

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Amit Y Ville » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:51 am

daiichi wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:40 am
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:21 am
Have you done a ritual in the Amityville house or similar?
One time, years ago. Brian Wilson let me inside and we played some Beach Boys records while we carried out a DIY spirit cleansing of our own. I didn't get a headache, but I did get a little gassy. Maybe it was ghosts, or just the Taco Bell I ate earlier that day. Upon leaving the bathroom, I noticed that the toilet bowl was stained and there was a pungent odor emanating from it. Perhaps more evidence of the paranormal?
My initial feeling about you was right.

But please, keep digging yourself a hole. I'll give you a lift up once you gain some knowledge about Amityville. Until then, you can debate with yourself.
Had to have high, high hopes for a living - Panic! At The Disco

User avatar
sherbetbizarre
Administrator
Posts: 9868
Contact:

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by sherbetbizarre » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:21 am

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:18 pm
Asking a question is not mean. Especially when said posters idea was to undermine and slander the Lutz's and make out they were idiots in a willfully ignorant way.
Anyone can be skeptical on this board - it's up to you to say how their hypothesis is wrong.

User avatar
sherbetbizarre
Administrator
Posts: 9868
Contact:

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by sherbetbizarre » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:48 am

daiichi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:04 pm
As far as I know, we don't have any insight into what the polygraph operators asked George and Kathy (if anyone knows, I would be happy to see it).
A scan of the results used to be online... but not anymore?

Here's a scan of the original newspaper article, which also lists the questions -

http://www.amityvillefaq.com/research/1 ... r)_FOLDER/

User avatar
jimmysmokes
Amityville Addict
Posts: 687

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by jimmysmokes » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:34 pm


User avatar
Dan the Damned
Lost Soul
Posts: 11904

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by Dan the Damned » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:18 pm

The polygraph is a tool. It is not a foolproof device which lights up when someone tells a lie. It is a tool which shows the operator when a subject's heartbeat or breathing, etc, changes or becomes erratic when they are asked certain questions. That doesn't necessarily mean "that's a lie," but it could be an indication.

The polygraph is only as good as the person administrating the test.

The Lutzes' tests were performed by Chris Gugas and Michael Rice, who were top experts in the field.

Chris Gugas said, "..what we derive by means of the polygraph is not truth, but the evidence of non-truth. Deception, then, with its subsequent admission by the subject, is as far as our technology can go, even now. Evidence of truth is gathered from the absence of tracings that suggest deception."
sherbetbizarre wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:48 am
A scan of the results used to be online... but not anymore?
I was thinking the same thing. I could have sworn we had them available here, but couldn't find it. I think it resided on George's website (which itself has disappeared).

User avatar
msmart112
Amityville_Member
Posts: 1972

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by msmart112 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:14 am

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
jimmysmokes
Amityville Addict
Posts: 687

Re: some question i wanna ask...

Post by jimmysmokes » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:37 am

https://elastic.org/~fche/mirrors/antip ... tector.pdf

Skip to page 22 and let's take a look at what Dr. Drew Richardson (Supervisory Special Agent-FBI) top expert says about the polygraph. The three points listed will show you that the tests administered aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Post Reply