Haunting perspective

General Discussion About Anything Amityville And Other Paranormal Topics

Haunting perspective

Postby Dan Cooper » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:58 am

I'm just curious as to who other than the Lutz family endorses this as a legitimate haunting?

I'm aware that the Warren's, a news reporter Didio, and a former reverend claim they believe the haunting to be legitimate.

I'm also aware that subsequent owners of the past 30 years, the Catholic diocese, local law enforcement, presiding judges, Ronald DeFeo jr., and the majority of the community itself regard this as an urban legend.

Aside from Hans Holzer, and a clairvoyant (Myers). That seems to me the
only sources that really support the haunting claim. It also seems to me like those with a background of some type in parapsychology here, don't have the credibilty base necessary to rival the credibility of the non believers to equal out the acceptance of the urban legend claims. Not to mention the credibility of practically the entire community of Amityville itself.

This seems to have permanently tainted the legitimacy of the haunting in the eyes of not only the curious, but current paranormal societies also.
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Postby bridge » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:57 pm

makes it spooky then.doesn't it ???
I'll say this..30 years ago something happened to myself ..the what isn't important...a few belived it did...many others just shook their heads..out of those that believed were a best friend...a Preacher and an aldult neighbor. These I knew...nothing was hidden. Those who didn't believe, I just knew they didn't..yeah some of them had titles and ranks in the community..but other then that..what they thought didn't change the fact that something had happened. If it is credibilty that is the question,,then the boat has left the harbor..it must all be taken and examined not just from the point of who/who not has a say in what happened.
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Postby TannerBoyle » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:31 am

I'm just curious as to who other than the Lutz family endorses this as a legitimate haunting?


Actually, you just answered your own question with....

I'm aware that the Warren's, a news reporter Didio, and a former reverend claim they believe the haunting to be legitimate.


....and.....

Aside from Hans Holzer, and a clairvoyant (Myers). That seems to me the
only sources that really support the haunting claim.


I'm also aware that subsequent owners of the past 30 years, the Catholic diocese, local law enforcement, presiding judges, Ronald DeFeo jr., and the majority of the community itself regard this as an urban legend.


Is that a fact?

I don't seem to recall ever seeing the Catholic Church or any of it's dioceses issuing any kind of statements as to whether or not the case was considered an urban legend. Have they ever officially investigated the case? If you have a link to where you got this information, I'd like to see it.

Have the Amityville PD or Suffolk County PD ever issued a statement to the effect that they believe the case to be an urban legend? Has a "presiding judge"? Has the haunting itself ever been the subject of an investigation by the DA or local law enforcement? Where did you get your information regarding the opinions of law enforcement and the judicial system regarding this case?

What about Ronald DeFeo? Is his credability in any way impeccible...about anything? His only connection to the haunting was the fact that he murdered his family.

And, how does the public opinion of the community of Amityville have any bearing on whether or not the entire case can be boiled down to an urban legend? Their only connection to the case is the fact that they live in the same town where these events occurred about thirty years ago. That's like saying my opinion about "Bloody Mary" carries more weight just because I'm originally from the Chicago area...

Public opinions polls don't have an effect on the validity of the case as a whole--especially from the sources you mentioned...many of which have no direct involvement with the case (or backgrounds in parapsychology). The facts do. That's what should be examined in determining whether or not the case is legitimate.

You can list as many pro-hoax sources as you can find, but I for one was never aware that the legitimacy of the case was tainted "in the eyes of not only the curious, but current paranormal societies also."

That statement there reminds me of another thread where another former member (who's style was very similar to yours) that started out with "the majority of Americans regard the case as a hoax". When asked how he came to this conclusion, he replied "a simple Google search will reveal that". When a simple Google search revealed nothing of the sort, and that most sources were split pretty evenly between pro-haunting and pro-hoax, his statement became "the majority of the sites I've visited".
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Postby sherbetbizarre » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:47 am

I don't think either the Catholic Church or Amityville PD issued any "statements" as such... but they sure told investigators they were wasting their time with the story.
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Postby TannerBoyle » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:52 am

Actually, I'd expect no less from the Amityville PD...as it's their job to keep the peace in that town, and wouldn't want any more ghost-hunters creeping around the property than they already have.

Ditto for the Catholic Church--given the sensationalism surrounding the case.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:54 pm

To everyone: stick to the issues. Stop with the personal attacks. Stop worrying about whether Dan Cooper is a real person or not. We have no evidence Dan Cooper is really TV. To date, this is the third person that people accuse of being TV. You guys need to let it go. TV was banned. Enough. Stick to the issues or ignore the thread - its not that difficult...

Now I believe Dan's question was "who, besides the Lutzes, Ed & Lorraine Warren, Laura Didio, Father Ray, Hans Holzer and Ethel Myers believe the haunting was real"...

One person left out was Mary Pascarella. I'm sure there are others...
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Postby Brendan72 » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:28 pm

Dan (the Damned),

I would be really interested in hearing that Art Bell interview with Malachi Martin where Martin made comments on the Amityville House.

I heard that those comments are not available on the Coast to Coast archives and if not I would be interested why. I am not suggesting a conspiracy theory or anything like that nor do I have any reason to believe Art Bell was lying when he mentioned Martin's comments to George in his interview.

Nonetheless if these are available you could add Malachi Martin to your list of those who publicly believe the haunting to be real.

You could also add Joel Martin.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:34 pm

Yes, Malachi Martin is another one to add to the list (although I have not heard the actual broadcast which Art referred to, either).

Regarding Joel Martin - doesn't he kinda flip flop over whether or not he believes? Last year on Coast to Coast, he said he didn't believe in it:

?See that?s one thing about paranormal investigations that I think people are very leery of, and I know Bill Burns is extremely cautious about that in his UFO research, and I am in everything I do about the paranormal. I don?t ever ever want to do anything that?s dishonest, I think is ethically wrong, and I also think that anything I do that is found out to be a lie about one thing will discredit everything I?ve done over the past 30 years. So, for example, when I found out that the Amityville Horror was a hoax I was only too happy to expose it, because if you?re going to let the phonies get away with things, then you?re never going to really get to the genuine.?
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Postby Brendan72 » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:46 pm

It is interesting because I have listened to Joel Martin speaking on the Lou Gentile show in both 2002 and 2003. And in both cases he made claims that supported the haunting. He believed in the haunting, yet whether it was to the extend George Lutz claimed he wasn't sure.

I would find it interesting that he would turn around and say it was a hoax yet he cannot account for the untimely deaths which occurred years afterwards as well as the occurrences.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:05 pm

Here's an interesting post that Tim Yancey posted on this board last year:

Joel Martin made the following statements on the Lou Gentile Show regarding the Amityville horror...

1.) "It didn't make any sense that none of those six people, the mother.. the father... the two sisters or the two brothers... woke up! I mean they all remained asleep... and yet there were shots, not a question about that... and there had to be some noise, or report from the gun that somebody would have heard... and yet nobody in the house who was asleep heard it apparently, no neighbor heard it... nobody anywhere! Not the kids who were only too willing to tell me who they thought did it.. it woke up nobody, and with the exception of the Defeo's dog baying, uh, crying between 3 and 3:00 and 3:30... not a sound. That was an incredibly frustrating part of the story for the police, and the medical examiner. "

2.) "I didn't think at that time at all ... at the scene when I was there.. that there was anything supernatural, or in any way paranormal or occult. BUT... when we got home later that night, I was kinda sick to my stomach from what I saw, although I had covered even... I was very young, I had covered a lot of stories in the city with a lot of crimes that I... I had grew up in a tough section of New York City where seeing bodies frankly was not that unusual, and seeing crime was not that unusual... but there was something very eerie and chilling about the scene. But... when I got home... I never put the pieces together that night... but I picked up my kitten. We had a beautiful new kitten that was the most gorgeous little fluffy thing ... i picked her up to pet her, and for no... no reason... totally inexplicable to this day... I'm petting the cat just to take my mind off of what I had just seen for four or five hours... the cat looks at me.. goes UUUGHHHHH... a little gagging sound, and died right in my hands. I got... frankly you know... im pretty tough, but that scared me. I really got the creeps at that point."

3.) (referring to the kitten incident) - "But I didnt make the association between that and that house until later.... when I started to realize that strange things were happening to people who were involved, and strange events were happening ... and then I spoke to some friends of mine who were engineers and scientists in the course of doing programs about this... and they changed my mind substantially because in the beginning I said, you know.. they had to make this entire thing up. And I spoke to a friend who was an engineer and an agnostic. He told me something that is very good advice when your dealing with anything that is supernatural or paranormal. It could be in Amityville... it could be in.. I dont care. Albequerque. It doesn't matter where. When you start summoning up energies... or spirits.. or things you don't understand from another dimension you dont understand... you don't know what your dealing with. Your putting your finger in an open light socket, and you don't know if that thing is on or off. And frankly... my opinion today is vastly different than it was back then...."

4.) "When you look back on the number of cynics and skeptics that tell you... it's all coincidences.... you know the thing about coincidences? At the end of that line.. is something called probability. And once, you know... once the coincidences get to be too many, the probabilities take over."

5.) "When so many people die and so many tragedies happen, and so many untold things happen around a house or a situation, you gotta really wonder if they didn't open up the gates to something, even if they didn't mean to in the beginning."

6.) (When asked by Lou if he thought Ronald Defeo might have been possessed during this) - "After many many years of researching this - I literally started in my teens... I fell into doing this subject... and couldnt get out of it I guess... I think frankly that if you define possession this way... Yes, somebody could be possessed. Defeo or anybody else. If you consider that the basis of every religion in the world is an afterlife... and you take with that basis that something remains after we die.. spirits... if there are going to be spirits or forms of energy that survive the physical body, and they might be positive.... your loved ones come back to communicate to you, why can't there be also, at the opposite of that like in the oriental concept of ying and yang - good and bad... why can't there be negative spirits? If negative spirits are summoned, if negative spirits infest somebody... if they are somehow involved with you because you summoned them, well then if you define possession that way... sure. Do I think that there is a guy running around with horns and a goatee... painted like the devil? I'm not sure about that.... but are there evil forces or entities that can infest somebody? I do think so, yes."

7.) "I was invited to spend overnight in that house several times. Because the people who moved into the house after Lee and Kathy, after George and Kathy Lutz fled... uh... were a couple who did not believe that this could be... and they never had any problem with anything psychic or occult. Thats very very possible... if something that you fool around with .. an energy or a spirit or something negative is attached to you... it's not going to necessarily be attached to the house or to them."

8.) (Regarding Geraldine Defeo) "Yeah, she's married to Butch Defeo like I'm gonna be the next pontiff... like I'm gonna be the next Pope, or President.. "

9.) Lou Gentile asked Joel Martin point blank: "Why do believe Amityville is more than just a story" Joel Martin replied " Frankly, at the very beginning, I believed it was just a story okay.... you know the paranormal is a very interesting thing. You can't believe it until it happens to you. This is a fact, alright? In my life, I digress to give you an example... for all the years I was talking about ghosts, and apparitions... from 1970 - 1972 .. all the way until 1997, a period of 25 years, I talked about ghosts and apparitions... I never saw one. I finally saw one in a church in Germany, in October, 1997. Now I know some skeptic listening will say Im making it up. I have no reason to make it up. I genuinely saw an apparition. Once you see it.. it's a whole different thing. You know it's genuine. Now... when you have events around a story... as unpleasant as around the Amityville Horror Story... that's what changed my mind. Once you see things happening. For example... I got the only broadcast interview in the country with Ronald Defeos attorney, Bill Webber, or William Weber. That was in 1979. I interviewed him on August 2nd, 1979. It was a thursday evening. We did it.. to use a lovely euphamism.. live on tape. We taped it, but theres no editing and you just replay it. I point out the tape because, not ten or fiftenn minutes before i sat down with Bill Weber, for this unique exclusive broadcast interview... about how he and George Lutz allegedly created the Amityville Horror Hoax... and how Lee or George went on his way and left Bill weber with nothing after it became a successful book and film... you know, that was a wonderful thing to have for a local talk show. Fifteen minutes before my young daughter called me, and Im gonna tell you exactly what she said. I picked up the phone in the newsroom, and I said "Newsroom"... and she said "Daddy..." and you know... it was her... and I could tell in her voice that something was wrong. she said, and I'm quoting " Mommy's Dead... Mommy's been killed. end quote. My former wife was killed that night, moments before I sat down to do that interview.. she was thirty years old. Crossing the street, hit by a guy driving on drugs of all things. And when you consider the number of people that died disproportionatly young, suddenly and tragically around this story... you wonder if there isn't something about it that... Im not talking just about my kitten or my cat... I'm talking about the people. Stephen Kaplane worked for twenty years on that book 'The Amityville Horror Conspiracy'... twenty years.. I have no idea why he spent that much time on it but he did.... it was his passion. Two weeks before it was published, in 1995... he died of a heart attack suddenly. He was early 50's. The guy that wrote the first story for good housekeeping magazine back in the early seventies... Paul (undistinguishable)... died. Jay Anson who wrote the amityville horror story... died."

10.) "It's true that every family that has moved into that house afterwards... they will not tell you publically, but privately... yes they have had stresses, absolutely."


These are direct quotes from Joel Martin from the Lou Gentile Show... I got about 3/4 of the way through the tapes and couldn't listen anymore. Joel has had some horrible experiences in his life that he seems to place the blame on his association with Amityville.... yet the first page of his book that he was promoting last night, "The Haunting Of The Presidents" states: Joel Martin is an ACE-winning cable television host who gained notoriety when he exposed the Amityville Horror hoax.

You have to admit that Joel's statements at the time seem to support the haunting.... then tonight he turns around on Coast To Coast.. and tells George Noory that "you can't let those phonies get away with that stuff".

Joel is a good guy... I just wish he would come down off the fence and stop saying whatever he thinks an interviewer wants to hear... or change his position depending on what book he is trying to sell at the time.
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Postby bridge » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:24 pm

1.) "It didn't make any sense that none of those six people, the mother.. the father... the two sisters or the two brothers... woke up! I mean they all remained asleep... and yet there were shots, not a question about that... and there had to be some noise, or report from the gun that somebody would have heard... and yet nobody in the house who was asleep heard it apparently, no neighbor heard it... nobody anywhere!


wasn't they all found on their stomachs with hands folded under their heads..did they never prove or disprove that that was staged..if not staged..then what??
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Postby Dan Cooper » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:48 am

To reply to a few comments, Tanner wrote -

I don't seem to recall ever seeing the Catholic Church or any of it's dioceses issuing any kind of statements as to whether or not the case was considered an urban legend


Here is a direct reply by letter from the Rockville centre dioceses -

"The dioceses maintains that this was a false report. In November of 1977 diocean attorneys prepared a substantial list, to be submitted to the publisher of numerous inaacuracies, factually incorrect refrences and untrue statements regarding events, persons, and occurences that never happened. Enclosed is an article that ran in L.I (Long Island) Newsday on Sept 12, 1979. I belive it correctly summirizes the situation.


The article maintains again that the entire haunting claim was a false report, so there is official proof that the Rockville centre dioceses doesn't endorse the claims alleged by the Lutz family. Is this not already obvious by the fact that their own cleric was involved in the initial claims? Bottom line, speculation aside, the Rockville dioceses or (Catholic involvement) in these claims have submitted in writing that they believe they are indeed false. That can't be argued.

As far as official law enforcement in relation to these claims, here is a quote directly from the Long Island voice article available from Mr. Lutze's own website -

Local cop Pat Cammarato wound up as a character in the book, which claims he visited the house. Reality check. "The way I was portrayed was :) silly dilly :)," Cammarato says. He was in the Amityville station the day Lutz came in (George Lutz) and surrendered a gun because he feared what the houses "demons" would make him do to his wife and three stepchildren. "He brought in the gun and said he was afraid of having the gun 'cause the house was haunted," Cammarato recalls. "It was all nonsense."


Now that was taken directly from Mr. Lutze's own website. After reading through that it seems like a real official fron the Suffolk County P.D obviously didn't endorse the haunted house claims in anyway.

In fact I wonder if officer Cammarato was supposedly the officer dispatched to 112 Ocean according to Kathy Lutz on the 700 club?

Aside from that, what about his statements in this article?...Direct quotes from this police officer in regard to his suspicion of Mr. Lutze's actions during the time the haunting was supposedly occurring. Am I supposed to believe officer Cammarato fabricated his statements just to oppose Mr. Lutze's haunting claim? Why should anybody believe that?

Opie wrote -

that talked about DC Cooper


Who's D.C Cooper? You mean D.B Cooper right? lol, but please don't refer to me as DC under any circumstances thank you.

onto this quote from Dan -

Now I believe Dan's question was "who, besides the Lutzes, Ed & Lorraine Warren, Laura Didio, Father Ray, Hans Holzer and Ethel Myers believe the haunting was real"...


So there you go, a few others I'm sure but a small circle within the parapsychological field.

Getting back to out of those who actually probed for psychic phenomenon within the house itself, we have -

Of course the Warrens,
Hans Holzer along with psychic Myers (I'm not sure which group this Mrs Downey fits.)

Anyway in hind-sight didn't all involved with these independent investigations grossly misjudge the situation? For example the Warrens claimed the property uninhabitable which was a totally inaccurate conclusion. Holzer's infamous burial ground claims which again were simply
inaccurate. At one time during a radio interview I recall Ed Warren prompting Stephen Kaplan on what instruments he used to investigate the property.

So from that I would gather Mr. Warren should have been familiar with scientific instruments to aide in his own paranormal investigations. So why is that data absent from the Warrens dramatic evaluation of 112 Ocean ave?

As far as I can tell no information has been put forward to date that even documents a simple thermal anomaly inside the house or electromagnetic anomaly for that matter either.

So what we have is the Warrens and Holzer branding the property as a "paranormal hotbed" for vengeful Indian spirits and negative forces which in the latter originate from the depths of the very earth itself....and with this not one recorded sample of scientific data to even suggest any anomalies anywhere on the property.

Lets face it, I think its safe to say any respectable paranormal researcher would consider these investigations complete failures even for the times. So again the bottom line is there isn't one shred of evidence that anything beyond the norm was occurring anytime at 112 Ocean ave...And there were two separate investigations conducted that failed to yield one single thing.

To put it in "layman's" terms, the entire haunting is expected to be believed simply by word of mouth from the Lutze's along with a few psychics who present these claims without a single shred of scientific proof to back up even slightly their unbelievable conclusions.
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Postby sherbetbizarre » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:19 am

Dan Cooper wrote:To put it in "layman's" terms, the entire haunting is expected to be believed simply by word of mouth from the Lutze's along with a few psychics who present these claims without a single shred of scientific proof to back up even slightly their unbelievable conclusions.


Yes, and I have no problem with that.

So which hauntings have been backed up, even slightly, by scientific proof?
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Postby Rockford » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:46 am

Dan Cooper wrote:To reply to a few comments, Tanner wrote -

I don't seem to recall ever seeing the Catholic Church or any of it's dioceses issuing any kind of statements as to whether or not the case was considered an urban legend


Here is a direct reply by letter from the Rockville centre dioceses -

"The dioceses maintains that this was a false report. In November of 1977 diocean attorneys prepared a substantial list, to be submitted to the publisher of numerous inaacuracies, factually incorrect refrences and untrue statements regarding events, persons, and occurences that never happened. Enclosed is an article that ran in L.I (Long Island) Newsday on Sept 12, 1979. I belive it correctly summirizes the situation.


The article maintains again that the entire haunting claim was a false report, so there is official proof that the Rockville centre dioceses doesn't endorse the claims alleged by the Lutz family. Is this not already obvious by the fact that their own cleric was involved in the initial claims? Bottom line, speculation aside, the Rockville dioceses or (Catholic involvement) in these claims have submitted in writing that they believe they are indeed false. That can't be argued.

As far as official law enforcement in relation to these claims, here is a quote directly from the Long Island voice article available from Mr. Lutze's own website -

Local cop Pat Cammarato wound up as a character in the book, which claims he visited the house. Reality check. "The way I was portrayed was ******," Cammarato says. He was in the Amityville station the day Lutz came in (George Lutz) and surrendered a gun because he feared what the houses "demons" would make him do to his wife and three stepchildren. "He brought in the gun and said he was afraid of having the gun 'cause the house was haunted," Cammarato recalls. "It was all nonsense."


Now that was taken directly from Mr. Lutze's own website. After reading through that it seems like a real official fron the Suffolk County P.D obviously didn't endorse the haunted house claims in anyway.

In fact I wonder if officer Cammarato was supposedly the officer dispatched to 112 Ocean according to Kathy Lutz on the 700 club?

Aside from that, what about his statements in this article?...Direct quotes from this police officer in regard to his suspicion of Mr. Lutze's actions during the time the haunting was supposedly occurring. Am I supposed to believe officer Cammarato fabricated his statements just to oppose Mr. Lutze's haunting claim? Why should anybody believe that?

Opie wrote -

that talked about DC Cooper


Who's D.C Cooper? You mean D.B Cooper right? lol, but please don't refer to me as DC under any circumstances thank you.

onto this quote from Dan -

Now I believe Dan's question was "who, besides the Lutzes, Ed & Lorraine Warren, Laura Didio, Father Ray, Hans Holzer and Ethel Myers believe the haunting was real"...


So there you go, a few others I'm sure but a small circle within the parapsychological field.

Getting back to out of those who actually probed for psychic phenomenon within the house itself, we have -

Of course the Warrens,
Hans Holzer along with psychic Myers (I'm not sure which group this Mrs Downey fits.)

Anyway in hind-sight didn't all involved with these independent investigations grossly misjudge the situation? For example the Warrens claimed the property uninhabitable which was a totally inaccurate conclusion. Holzer's infamous burial ground claims which again were simply
inaccurate. At one time during a radio interview I recall Ed Warren prompting Stephen Kaplan on what instruments he used to investigate the property.

So from that I would gather Mr. Warren should have been familiar with scientific instruments to aide in his own paranormal investigations. So why is that data absent from the Warrens dramatic evaluation of 112 Ocean ave?

As far as I can tell no information has been put forward to date that even documents a simple thermal anomaly inside the house or electromagnetic anomaly for that matter either.

So what we have is the Warrens and Holzer branding the property as a "paranormal hotbed" for vengeful Indian spirits and negative forces which in the latter originate from the depths of the very earth itself....and with this not one recorded sample of scientific data to even suggest any anomalies anywhere on the property.

Lets face it, I think its safe to say any respectable paranormal researcher would consider these investigations complete failures even for the times. So again the bottom line is there isn't one shred of evidence that anything beyond the norm was occurring anytime at 112 Ocean ave...And there were two separate investigations conducted that failed to yield one single thing.

To put it in "layman's" terms, the entire haunting is expected to be believed simply by word of mouth from the Lutze's along with a few psychics who present these claims without a single shred of scientific proof to back up even slightly their unbelievable conclusions.


somebody else brought my up my error in Cooper's name. Thanks for bringing that up though, as it's been awhile since I saw the movie with Treat Williams.

I don't think you will ever find scientific proof, but with having said this, you can't dismiss the pictures that the cameras catch, or the fact that there are people who truly believe that they've seen apparitions/spirits and unless they are great actors, are truly frightened by what they've seen/witnessed. There are some people who do not want media exposure, or any kind of exposure, so where the monetary gain in that? The same people who do not want their names mentioned?

There are some things that cannot just be explained. It's up to each individual as to whether they want to believe or not. Trying to dissect this, piece by piece, just won't work, and especially if you won't open your mind to the possibilities.
When George Lutz has his book printed, we can then dissect the pictures as to what everyone sees in each photo.

As in ghostboy, some see glasses, while others do not.

oh, where are my manners? I apologize, and welcome, Mr. Cooper! DB Cooper! :wink: I promise....I won't make the mistake in yer name again.
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Postby TannerBoyle » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:46 am

As far as official law enforcement in relation to these claims, here is a quote directly from the Long Island voice article available from Mr. Lutze's own website -

Quote:
Local cop Pat Cammarato wound up as a character in the book, which claims he visited the house. Reality check. "The way I was portrayed was ******," Cammarato says. He was in the Amityville station the day Lutz came in (George Lutz) and surrendered a gun because he feared what the houses "demons" would make him do to his wife and three stepchildren. "He brought in the gun and said he was afraid of having the gun 'cause the house was haunted," Cammarato recalls. "It was all nonsense."


Now that was taken directly from Mr. Lutze's own website. After reading through that it seems like a real official fron the Suffolk County P.D obviously didn't endorse the haunted house claims in anyway.


The question I presented to you wasn't if one local law enforcement official endorsed the haunting or not. It was:

Have the Amityville PD or Suffolk County PD ever issued a statement to the effect that they believe the case to be an urban legend? Has a "presiding judge"? Has the haunting itself ever been the subject of an investigation by the DA or local law enforcement?


In that bit you posted, Sgt Cammarato was speaking about his own limited involvement in the case--his dealings with George Lutz and his own characterization in Anson's novel. He was not speaking on behalf of the department as a whole. And, his comment "it was all nonsense" isn't referring to the case as a whole, but his own personal involvement in the case.

As for:

Here is a direct reply by letter from the Rockville centre dioceses -

Quote:
"The dioceses maintains that this was a false report. In November of 1977 diocean attorneys prepared a substantial list, to be submitted to the publisher of numerous inaacuracies, factually incorrect refrences and untrue statements regarding events, persons, and occurences that never happened. Enclosed is an article that ran in L.I (Long Island) Newsday on Sept 12, 1979. I belive it correctly summirizes the situation.


The article maintains again that the entire haunting claim was a false report, so there is official proof that the Rockville centre dioceses doesn't endorse the claims alleged by the Lutz family. Is this not already obvious by the fact that their own cleric was involved in the initial claims? Bottom line, speculation aside, the Rockville dioceses or (Catholic involvement) in these claims have submitted in writing that they believe they are indeed false. That can't be argued.


Where does this article appear? Please provide a link to that article. I think that a "direct reply by letter from the Rockville centre dioceses" wouldn't have so many typos. :lol:
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Postby Dan Cooper » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:14 am

So which hauntings have been backed up, even slightly, by scientific proof?


Countless investigations have. The Winchester house for example has documented EMF, and temperature anomalies recorded during various past scientific investigations. The investigative bodies themselves are in abundance through out the united states alone, and unlike the Warrens not only do they conduct scientific probes into their cases, they are non profit organizations. These same paranormal bodies were available in 1975 as well, the simple human curiosity involved with investigating a supposed haunted location spans back a lot farther than 1975 and the Warrens.

Getting back on topic of these other investigative bodies, the majority of whom aren't promoting literature or paid speaking engagements in the meantime like the Warrens or Holzer have. They are honestly attempting to catalog any sort of anomalies at any location, and more importantly they aren't attempting to sell something in relation to any of their investigations which adds to their face credability.

The word "credibility" seems to come into play here a lot when describing a Stephen Kaplan for instance.

Yet Stephen Kaplan wasn't the one assigned the task of investigating the property to document anything paranormal if anything paranormal happened to be preesent at all.

Those that were are without a doubt negligent in their professionalism evident by their drastic conclusions alone. Thats just an honest assessment of the entire situation, they failed to produce anything (even a simple EMF reading) to even suspect anything paranormal was in fact taking place at 112 Ocean ave.
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Postby Warlock » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:34 am

Opie2 wrote:
Dan Cooper wrote:Pardon me, but are you an authority on the Lutz case, or in the forum in someway?

I posted a short perspective on the entire thing, and you took a defensive position against it because you misinterpreted the entire point in it to begin with.


In effect you openly accused me of degrading this entire discussion forum in someway. Simply because it appeared to you that that was my intention. I have already pointed out to you that is clearly not the case here. If not you would not have pointed out here how you misinterpreted the entire thing -

Things are misunderstood in this medium all the time.


...you misunderstood, your own words there k?

I asked you to explain *your* support of Kaplan.


I never claimed to support anybody. Again you still aren't comprehending that for whatever reason.

On another thread you stated (ver batim ALA "TheVampireologist) 'What makes a demonologist more credible than a vampireologist


That was asked by the Saint Susperia poster in that thread first, remember? I notice you failed to answer it there as well.


I'm psychic. I know exactly who you are, and you aren't a "newcomer" by any stretch.
and this...


Well, if your so psychic why did you misinterpret my original statement to begin with here?


TV--you and I had said our peace...but please don't expect us not to think you aren't him. I remember the post you made (before you were banned) that talked about DC Cooper, and with this exact picture you have posted here.

This isn't my board and I don't care who Dan, Sherb, or Billy leave here to post or not, but please don't insult my intelligence by posting with a new username.

All I'm going to say about this.
Now on with this thread....


haha which,witch is "wich" :twisted: :wink:
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Postby Dan Cooper » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:35 am

Tanner wrote -

The question I presented to you wasn't if one local law enforcement official endorsed the haunting or not. It was:


Have the Amityville PD or Suffolk County PD ever issued a statement to the effect that they believe the case to be an urban legend? Has a "presiding judge"? Has the haunting itself ever been the subject of an investigation by the DA or local law enforcement?


Well, judge Weinstein was quoted as saying the haunting was "concocted" in so many words in a courtroom. Aside from that why would local law enforcement set out to investigate a haunting claim anyway?

Lets put it this way, I think its a bit obvious that the local law enforcement, community, and Catholic dioceses embraces this as a fraud or something similar. I could start running around the net giving you quotes from various Suffolk County police officials, town representatives, locals etc. that would agree with Mr. Cammarto's position. But again their position on it all has been maintained for years so thats up to you to look for.

Where does this article appear? Please provide a link to that article. I think that a "direct reply by letter from the Rockville centre dioceses" wouldn't have so many typos.


This isn't an article. In fact its a letter from the diocese itself, here it is -

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Postby TannerBoyle » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:10 am

Well, judge Weinstein was quoted as saying the haunting was "concocted" in so many words in a courtroom.


In so many words? What were his exact words and what was the exact matter he was presiding over?

Aside from that why would local law enforcement set out to investigate a haunting claim anyway?


That's my whole point. They wouldn't. Nor would they make any statements to that effect.

In your initial post, you wrote:

I'm also aware that subsequent owners of the past 30 years, the Catholic diocese, local law enforcement, presiding judges, Ronald DeFeo jr., and the majority of the community itself regard this as an urban legend.


Which in fact is potentially misleading. The entire collective opinions of "local law enforcement" cannot be summed up by a single law enforcement officer who is commenting on his own limited involvement in the case.

Lets put it this way, I think its a bit obvious that the local law enforcement, community, and Catholic dioceses embraces this as a fraud or something similar


That's your opinion, not fact.

I could start running around the net giving you quotes from various Suffolk County police officials, town representatives, locals etc. that would agree with Mr. Cammarto's position.


His position on what? The statements you posted in which he talks about his own limited involvement in the case?

Even if he was referring to the case as a whole, it would still be just his opinion, not the opinion of the Department as a whole, and not something backed up by the serious scientific investigation techniques you cited in your last post to Opie2...as would any quotes you might find on the net from "various Suffolk County police officials, town representatives, locals etc.".

This isn't an article. In fact its a letter from the diocese itself, here it is -


Well, in the post that bit was in response to, you said it was from an "article":

The article maintains again that the entire haunting claim was a false report, so there is official proof that the Rockville centre dioceses doesn't endorse the claims alleged by the Lutz family.


That's why I addressed it as such.

Anyway, you still haven't posted a link to that article, or attempted to cite where you got that source.

I'd lay five to one it's from Kaplan's book, isn't it? :lol:

Nevertheless, a private letter allegedly sent by one priest at the request of the Bishop hardly qualifies as an anwer to the question I presented to you in the first place, which was:

I don't seem to recall ever seeing the Catholic Church or any of it's dioceses issuing any kind of statements as to whether or not the case was considered an urban legend. Have they ever officially investigated the case? If you have a link to where you got this information, I'd like to see it.


Now, if you can't respond with something other than broad generalizations, or your own opinion, please don't bother DC. :wink:
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Postby Dan Cooper » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:42 am

Seems to mwah' that you are trying a bit too hard to hold up your end in this discussion. Please name us one local resident, police official, or dioceses member (other than Pecarraro) who has even stated that the house may in fact be a haunted dwelling of some sort. You know what?...You can't!!!

..and do you know why? 'Cause in 30 plus years now the majority of popular opinion in and around Suffolk county/Amityville is that the story is indeed a hoax. Simple precise observation there, so save those keys for something that makes a bit more sense to argue over.

Well, in the post that bit was in response to, you said it was from an "article"


No, see if you you will notice that letter towards the end where it mentions the Long Island Newsday article from September of '79. Which states the exact same thing as the letter itself from REV Robert O. Morrissey of the Rockville centre dioceses - that the story (or haunting) was a false report. lol
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Oh but they?re weird and they?re wonderful...

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Postby TannerBoyle » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:00 am

Seems to mwah' that you are trying a bit too hard to hold up your end in this discussion.


Not at all. I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your argument--seems to me like you're suffering from "delusions of granger", again. And, I guess you missed that last bit where I asked you not to bother posting your opinions.

BTW, the word your looking for is "moi".

Please name us one local resident, police official, or dioceses member (other than Pecarraro) who has even stated that the house may in fact be a haunted dwelling of some sort. You know what?...You can't!!!


That's not the focus of my position in this thread. I'm merely pointing out that you're making broad generalizations and stating your opinions as the basis for your argument, instead of hard fact.

..and do you know why? 'Cause in 30 plus years now the majority of popular opinion in and around Suffolk county/Amityville is that the story is indeed a hoax. Simple precise observation there, so save those keys for something that makes a bit more sense to argue over.


Again, that's a broad generalization. Tedious, to say the least.

No, see if you you will notice that letter towards the end where it mentions the Long Island Newsday article from September of '79. Which states the exact same thing as the letter itself from REV Robert O. Morrissey of the Rockville centre dioceses - that the story (or haunting) was a false report.


Regardless, it's still not what I asked for in the first place, nor is it an official statement about the Church's stance on the subject--it's a letter allegedly sent from one priest on behalf of the Bishop...a letter sent to parties still as of yet unknown to us, since you still haven't posted a link to where we can find this letter for ourselves, told us who the letter was sent to, or what your source is.

Now, while...

"The dioceses maintains that this was a false report. In November of 1977 diocean attorneys prepared a substantial list, to be submitted to the publisher of numerous inaacuracies, factually incorrect refrences and untrue statements regarding events, persons, and occurences that never happened. Enclosed is an article that ran in L.I (Long Island) Newsday on Sept 12, 1979. I belive it correctly summirizes the situation.


....maintains that the Diocese allegedly prepared a list, it doesn't say that that list was ever made public, or that an actual statement was made--it only says that the priest in question believes that the "Newsday" article correctly summarizes the situation.

That's not an official statement of the Church's position, or anything close. It's the alleged unofficial opinion of one man...and the fact that he sent an article from "Newsday" in lieu of anything official from the Church is just an example him effectively dodging the question.

Let's try this one last time:

I don't seem to recall ever seeing the Catholic Church or any of it's dioceses issuing any kind of statements as to whether or not the case was considered an urban legend. Have they ever officially investigated the case? If you have a link to where you got this information, I'd like to see it.


Now, DC...CAN you go on without arguing strictly from personal opinion and broad generalizations? Again, if you can't, like I already said--don't bother responding at all.

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