Hoax And Fraud!

General Discussion About Anything Amityville And Other Paranormal Topics

Postby SilkyPup » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:47 pm

Are you the one that saw Jodie?

I believe you are thinking of Jodie
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Postby NCPilot » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:04 pm

SilkyPup wrote:
Are you the one that saw Jodie?

I believe you are thinking of Jodie


Which Lutz kid was the one that saw the pig thingie. This is the first time I heard of Gabarielle.
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Postby SilkyPup » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:08 pm

You are thinking of Missy {Melissa}. Gabrielle would have been born AFTER the Lutz family lived in Amityville
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Postby NCPilot » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:03 pm

SilkyPup wrote:You are thinking of Missy {Melissa}. Gabrielle would have been born AFTER the Lutz family lived in Amityville


Ahhhh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Postby SilkyPup » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:05 pm

Ahhhh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

No problem :D
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Postby katiesmith » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:31 pm

i thought that they changed the names of the children in the original amytyville movie to protect the children but, wasnt missy the same name they used in that movie and i did not know the lutzes had another child i mean i knew kathy had three and george adopted them.but, i did not know they had a child together.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:37 pm

In the 1979 movie, the kids' names became Greg, Matt and Amy.

The kids were Kathy's from a previous marriage. After moving from Amityville, George and Kathy had two children together.
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Postby katiesmith » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:41 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:In the 1979 movie, the kids' names became Greg, Matt and Amy.

The kids were Kathy's from a previous marriage. After moving from Amityville, George and Kathy had two children together.

oh yeah thats right i remember now, but in the book did they use their real names. two children huh well i am really behind i guess
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:46 pm

Well, in the copy I have (of Anson's book) they do use the kids' real names. I forget if they changed the names in later editions or left them the same...
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Postby katiesmith » Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:05 pm

i dont mean to pry into other peoples busines and i know it has been 30 years but how is the family doing now. i mean after such an ordeal, i imagine this could haunt them for life how are they dealing with all this.
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Postby NCPilot » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:50 am

katiesmith wrote:i dont mean to pry into other peoples busines and i know it has been 30 years but how is the family doing now. i mean after such an ordeal, i imagine this could haunt them for life how are they dealing with all this.


Well Kathy is dead.

George is still going around talking about Amityville.

Chris Lutz is going aganist his father and wishes to tell his own verison of what happened.

I dunno about the other children though. I think they still remain quiet on the subject.
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Postby Teresa » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:34 am

HellboundGreaser wrote:The Lutzes must be the luckiest people on the planet. Hell Ghost hunters and paranormal researchers work their whole careers to just witness ONE of the phenomenon that the Lutzes claimed. Damn how lucky they were to witness several different types . And heck all in just 28 days!, Imagine that! It's like they won the ghost lottery! Far fetched? Unlikley? exaggerated??? Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :roll:


Can't argue with that. It IS kind of bizar. Even the Smurls never got into trouble like the Lutzes did. TM should be forbidden by law, it thats what caused them to be so open to these kind of EXTREME phenomena. So extreme in fact, even excorcism and hoodoo reports will never top their story.
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Postby TIA » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:41 am

Teresa wrote:
Even the Smurls never got into trouble like the Lutzes did.


The Smurl account includes demonic rape. What they said happened to them was certainly more extreme than Amityville, but they also said it built up over years, not days.


Teresa wrote:TM should be forbidden by law, it thats what caused them to be so open to these kind of EXTREME phenomena. So extreme in fact, even excorcism and hoodoo reports will never top their story.


That might be tricky. Most criticism I've seen of TM has been accusations of the organisation's destructive cult behaviour, not supernatural problems.
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Postby BillyCigars » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:03 am

TM should be forbidden by law, it thats what caused them to be so open to these kind of EXTREME phenomena. So extreme in fact, even excorcism and hoodoo reports will never top their story.


Let's forbid cars by law, too. Afterall, they kill tons of people; moreso than say....TM ;)
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Postby Teresa » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:24 am

BillyCigars wrote:
TM should be forbidden by law, it thats what caused them to be so open to these kind of EXTREME phenomena. So extreme in fact, even excorcism and hoodoo reports will never top their story.


Let's forbid cars by law, too. Afterall, they kill tons of people; moreso than say....TM ;)

actually, we should :P

but seriousely. I heard of more psychic problems due to TM. I think it could be dangerous, if not performed under guidance of a Satguru.
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Postby NCPilot » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:29 am

I am almost afraid to ask, but what is TM?
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Postby Teresa » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:33 am

Transcendental Meditation, a hype of the sixties/seventies. Beatles included.

http://www.tm.org/
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Re: Hoax And Fraud!

Postby OnTheMarkTexas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:20 am

I was once a believer in the horror being real but that was only because we had the book, the film, the Lutzes,
and the Warrens saying it happened. I had no reason NOT to believe it was real.

Skip ahead to the mid-1990a ... I stumble across some pro-hoax info and then did a complete 180 degree turn and thought that it was all a hoax.

It's now 2011, and I have come to view the case a little differntly now. As they say, hindsight is 20/20 and with certainty, I can view the claims by both the pro-haunting and pro-hoax camps and see both sides of the issue.

One disturbing discovery was that both sides have agendas of their own ... this will keep the case from ever having a definative conclusion. For every claim the pro-hoaxers disprove, other questions are either overlooked or go unanswered. And let's face it -- everyone involved in this case has credibility issues ... George & Kathy; the Warrens; Hans Holzer; William Weber; Stephen Kaplan; etc.

I'm gonna catch alot of sh-t for this, but basically here's what I think happened --

The Lutzes move into the Amityville house but as good as the price tag was ($80k even though it had been apprased around $130k) it took all they had collectively just to make the down payment.

A few days after they moved in, the heating system went out and they did not have the funds to have it fixed. Around this time, George's business took a nose dive. These 2 events probably put a very huge strain on the family emotionally.

The murders of the DeFeo family created alot of negative energy in the house ... add to that the emotional stress due to the broken heating system and George's business woes. Now to make matters even worse, factor in George's hands-on interest in the Occult ... you've got the recipe for a very ugly situation.

I will concede that the Lutz family expreienced some sort of paranormal activity while in the house but I think they exaggerated things (almost to the point of fiction) when they told their story. Years later, George even admitted that Jay Anson's book took certain liberties and was structured in such a way as to make it as appearling as possible.

In past interviews as well as in Jay Anson's book, George claims he had no prior interest in/knowledge of the Occult, however, Christopher stated in an interview from October 2011 that even before his mom married George he had an active interest in Demonology. In his interview, Chirs eluded to experiencing paranormal activity before, during, and after the family's stay in Amityville. He places the blame for the family's brush with the supernatural squarly on George's shoulders.

However, there are 3 things I find odd about Christopher's take on things --

1.) He claims to have never read Jay Anson's book until 2000...seriously, Chris? I find that hard to believe but it's really a moot point

2.) He says that when he showed the book to Kathy in 2000, she acted shocked at it's obvious "embelishments." I take issue with this because Prentis Hall couldn't have proceeded with printing the book until both George and Kathy signed offon its contents.

3.) He blames Geroge for all the bad things that befell the family but seems to dance around the issue of his mother's complicity. She went on TV along with George back in the day and shamelessly plugged both the book and film. Even after her divorce from George, she went on THE 700 CLUB and spoke about her experiences.

If Christopher is trying to convence the public that Kathy was somehow charmed or manipulated by George into going along with things, then how does he explain her willingness to still perpetuate the story years AFTER George was out of her life? Perphas out of some sort or honor (or even guilt) he feels he needs to make excuses for Kathy's part in all this.

Also, to be fair to the Lutzes, after they refused to enter into the book deal with Weber, he authorized Paul Hoffman to write the articles that appeared in Newsday and Good Housekeeping, the latter being a nationally distributed publication that catapolted the story into the National Consciousness.

The Lutzes had 2 choices at this point -- either let the story die or tell it themselves to keep others from doing so. By going behind the Lutze's back with the 2 articles, Weber actually started the wheels in motion and thrust them into the spotlight. And once the Lutzes let the Warrens attach themselves, there was no way that those 2 attention-grabbing media whores were gonna let the story die down before they used it to help futher their careers.

I think what happened at this point is that whether they liked the attention or felt they could make a quick buck (I don't they expected to become billionaires but hey a quick buck is a quick buck) the Lutzes began to exaggerate what really happened to them. At a certain point there was no turning back (espeically once a book deal was secured) and it became less about deceiving the public and more about protecting any future earnings (no matter how big or small). Whether by design or by outside circumstances out of their control, George and Kathy did perpetuate some sort of fraud on the public if what Christopher Quaratino claims is to be believed.

Because let's face it, audiences expect a bang for their buck. They want to be entertained. The Lutzes gave the public what it wanted.
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Re: Hoax And Fraud!

Postby OnTheMarkTexas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:50 am

And something I forgot to add to the bottom of my last posting (option to edit has already expired) --


Note: the heating system going out in the house soon after the Lutzes moved in is something I remember reading in Kaplan's book but not sure if it was mentioned in Anson's. Can someone please let me know?

Note: I have not made any references to Father Ray ... I am not certain what role (if any) he might have played. I am still on the proverbial fence when it comes to him. Part of me things he could have actually blessed the house and suffered demonic attacks as a result, but then my cynical side, leads me to feel that he might have helped the Lutzes perpetuate a fraud on the public, using his role in the Chruch to give their claims (and his association) some sort of merit.
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Re: Hoax And Fraud!

Postby Dan the Damned » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:24 am

OnTheMarkTexas wrote:I'm gonna catch alot of sh-t for this, but...

Well, yeah. Welcome to the Internet. Anyone who posts their opinion on anything is gonna get a counter opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

OnTheMarkTexas wrote:I stumble across some pro-hoax info and then did a complete 180 degree turn and thought that it was all a hoax.

Depending on the way things are worded, some people can make a very convincing argument for a hoax. Trouble is, most people don't bother to look further -- they just take the info as read and assume it is all "on the level." But as you can see in the pages of this forum, there is a lot to the hoax theories that are not on the level.

And while you should be cynical about the hoax claims, you should also be cynical when reading posts that support the haunting -- suggesting such things as the haunting being investigated and confirmed by the Catholic Church, for example. There is a lot of misinformation on both sides of the issue. That's why this forum exists.

OnTheMarkTexas wrote:A few days after they moved in, the heating system went out and they did not have the funds to have it fixed. Around this time, George's business took a nose dive. These 2 events probably put a very huge strain on the family emotionally.

That sounds plausible, but the Lutzes were a newly married couple. George had a house of his own and so did Kathy. George claimed that the sale of their 2 homes netted them more money than the Amityville house would cost.

But do we have confirmation of that? No.

However, consider the fact that when the Lutzes fled Amityville and flew across the country, they had no problem buying a new home in pricey Southern California. To me this indicates that any money problems they may have had was not big enough to force them from Ocean Avenue.

OnTheMarkTexas wrote:I will concede that the Lutz family expreienced some sort of paranormal activity while in the house but I think they exaggerated things (almost to the point of fiction) when they told their story. Years later, George even admitted that Jay Anson's book took certain liberties and was structured in such a way as to make it as appearling as possible.

It is no secret that the story was exaggerated. The question is: "By whom?" Was it exaggerated by the Lutzes or by Jay Anson?

If it was exaggerated by the Lutzes, they would have no reason to inform the public. There is no way to verify that George saw a disembodied face in the red room, so why would he suddenly say that part was fiction?

As for Anson, let's look in the book The Amityville Horror Conspiracy. As you know, Kaplan had no love for the Lutzes, so he would have no reason to lie in their defense. And in Kaplan's book, he quotes Jay Anson admitting to using artistic license in order to make the Lutzes' story more compelling.

Case closed, in my opinion...

OnTheMarkTexas wrote:Also, to be fair to the Lutzes, after they refused to enter into the book deal with Weber, he authorized Paul Hoffman to write the articles that appeared in Newsday and Good Housekeeping, the latter being a nationally distributed publication that catapolted the story into the National Consciousness.

The Lutzes had 2 choices at this point -- either let the story die or tell it themselves to keep others from doing so.

The deal with Jay Anson and Prentice-Hall was made long before Hoffman wrote those articles. George said the deal was in place before the family moved to California. Jay Anson was writing the book before Hoffman's articles came out.

George claims the reason they sued Weber/Hoffman was due to pressure from Prentice-Hall, who said they would not go ahead with the book unless Hoffman was prevented from writing more articles about their story.

Another tidbit here -- I believe there was no official refusal to Weber by the Lutzes. I think Weber was left in the dark as to whether or not the Lutzes were still interested in the book project. I think when the Lutzes received that laughable, one-sided contract (sent by Weber for them to sign) they just shook their heads and basically said "screw this guy," not bothering to even contact him to say "deal's off."

So it's not like Weber had Hoffman write those articles knowing the Lutzes had decided against participating in his book project. I think Weber felt they were hesitant, but still thought he could talk them into it, not knowing about the Prentice-Hall deal...

OnTheMarkTexas wrote:However, there are 3 things I find odd about Christopher's take on things...

Chris' claims are interesting, but until we get specific details, it's hard to form an opinion about them. Claiming George was chanting the names of demons is just not enough to make me think "Oh, damn, George was into witchcraft." There are just too many questions that need to be addressed, such as "Was Kathy by his side at the time?" "Was Kathy also chanting demon names?" "Did she approve of George's interest?" "Why didn't she speak of George's interest in the occult?" And so on.

But Chris is concerned that if/when he tells his story, people might steal it; so he wants to publish it first in a book and protect it via copyright first. Fine. But until then, I guess we'll just keep guessing whether Chris' claims have any merit...
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Re: Hoax And Fraud!

Postby OnTheMarkTexas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:30 pm

Dan:

I was so glad to see your replied. I knew you'd be able to provide some addtional insights and fill in some of the gaps ...

By the way, to your knowledge, did George's civil engineering business experience a down turn around the time they purchased the house? I know the movie lightly touched on this and there are a few references in Kaplan's book but I'm not sure if it was merely conjecture or proven to be accurate.

Oh, and what are your thoughts on the Warrens -- legit paranormal investigators or eccentric, media-hungry charletons?
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