Ghost Hunters on the Warrens

General Discussion About Anything Amityville And Other Paranormal Topics

Ghost Hunters on the Warrens

Postby quotestheraven » Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:34 pm

Did anyone watch Ghost Hunters tonight when they went to the house previously investigated by the Warrens? Jason rolled his eyes when the one investigator mentioned the Warrens, and said you had to take any findings by the Warrens with a grain of salt.
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Postby TheVampireologist » Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:35 pm

hi quotestheraven,

great,thank you for shareing that information on here.Ive caught the show
and must say im a fan of it.The TAP's organization really strikes me as
straight-forward and professional when it comes to how they conduct
their investigations and methods they employ to do so.However I missed the show and am curious as to their findings in regards to a house the warrens investigated.

On a side note here.The founders of the Atlantic paranormal society, Jason Hawes and Grant Wilson are employed as plumbers during the daytime.Even with these daytime "credentials" they are more than professional as to leading investigations and inquries into paranormal phenomonon.In fact alot more professional in their approach as to that of the Warrens as an investigative body.That being said, it puts a better perspective on the position here of attacking credentials regarding stephen kaplan as to his professionalism as an investigator in the field aswell.

Also when the claims against him cannot be substantiated by any form of proof either.After all if im not mistaken he founded his own paranormal invesigative body out of Elmhurst, NY long before the amityville case had even gained notoriety and im sure his motives in doing so were genuine in his attempts at investigating and uncovering supposed paranormal phenomonon.
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Postby TimYancey » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:37 am

Growing up as a kid, I had a tremendous fascination with the paranormal.... ghosts in particular. My mom was always cool about driving me down to the local library, and letting me check out books about the subject. In 1969, there wasn't a lot of people out there who were writing about ghosts... one of the authors I read a lot was the Warrens.

Now my bookcases here at the house are lined with tons of paranormal related books... I've spent years nosing around in old used book stores, Barnes & Noble... anyplace I could go to feed my two favorite passions: Reading, and the paranormal. One particular shelf is full of the books written by Ed and Lorraine.

In recent years, a new generation of 'Ghost Hunters' have emerged... people like Jason and Grant of T.A.P.S., Troy Taylor... Richard Senate and Lou Gentile, John Zaffis.. the list goes on and on. Several of them have moved up the ranks in popularity, and are sought after by paranormal enthusiasts from all over the country. They have become very successful in the lecture and convention circuit... and rightly so, for they are all dedicated and passionate about what they do. Some of their books line my shelves as well, and a few I'm proud to call my friends.

But with that notoriety seems to come a bit of an ego as well... and many of us in the new generation seem to think that it's fashionable to poke fun at the methods... and the investigators of the past. At the same time, we run around offering "GhostHunter Certificates"... while holding an E.M.F. detector in our hand that we're not even really sure how to use, or why. Some people boldy declare another person's work as fraudulent... while they take pictures of orbs and 'think' it could be a ghost. Truth be told... none of us have the slightest clue what we are doing when it comes to studying ghosts, and never will (at least until we become one).

The Warrens were some of the most passionate... fiercely dedicated people I know when it comes to studying the paranormal. Hell... they basically pioneered the whole concept of 'ghost-hunting' in America. The reading I have done shows them to be a very religous couple, devoted to the Catholic faith. I have no argument with the theory that if something infests your house... and it terrorizes and scares it's victims... that they would come to the conclusion that it was of demonic origin. That's what their faith taught them... that's what they labeled it.

I don't know what you folks personally think of the Warren's... don't care. I can't fairly say that I agree with all of their conclusions either, but... I applaud them for being the people that they are.. and I thank them for the many years of dedication that they gave to the field of paranormal research. I also appreciate them for fueling my passion with the many books I stayed up past my bedtime reading (under the covers with a flashlight). The Warren's are true pioneers of ghost-hunting in my eyes... I just wish other's in the field didn't think it somehow benefits them and makes them appear more professional... by discrediting others.

20 years from now... I truly hope nobody watches old re-runs of Jason and rolls their eyes at him when he gets all excited about orbs. Hope nobody bashes our generation when they see us moving an EMF detector all over a room bombarded with electrical fields... wondering why the needle moves. Instead I hope they appreciate Jason's passion and dedication for what he did in the field, and realize that as hard as us humans try, and whatever methods we use... we'll never really understand the world of the paranormal.
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Postby Howard64 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:13 pm

I thinkits safe to say that paranormal investigation has changed over the years. For example, when the Warrens did their investigations, technology had not yet made it possible to record occurences, like we have today. I think this changes things alot.
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Postby vampy1978 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:55 pm

I like the show. the first time i saw it, it scared the :) flower :) out of me. :-)
i never once seen jason get excited about an orb. there have been a few shows where i thought they calling a site not hunted was crazy, but thinking about it now. i agree because they didnt show enough proof.

technology has come a long away. sure i think those little metal things that cross when it comes across an electic field is :) flower :)... and they have never taken that tooo serously.

i have not read anything on the warrens.

i like them and i enjoy watching them when i can.

i miss them. :-(
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Postby TheVampireologist » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:44 pm

Vampy I think you're refering to dousing (sp?) rods.There is strong arguments to support their effectiveness in such things as pin pointing underground pockets of water for example.

Addressing the above prior posts in regards to technology and its evolvment in the paranormal field in the last 30 years.

Accepted such things as digital photography and hand held insrurments,lap top computers aswell as even some techniques like evp recordings have emerged on the scene lately and just now are being widely embraced by paranormal investigators.

But to be honest here,the field wasnt compleatly lacking technology wise even in the mid 70's.Even then it was possible to measure magnetic fields and thermo anomilies and photograph in for example the infra-red spectrum.I'll admit anolog hadn't yet at this point been compleatly eclipsed by digital circitry and any evidence gathered from any of these insturments then or now isnt in itself (proof) of paranormal phenomonon.However this documented info gives more creedence as to the overall value to substantiate claims of haunting in a particular place as opposd to a location where these insturments record no anomiles whatsoever.

That being said and getting back to the TAP'S outfit and the way they conduct their investigations as opposed to the Warrens for example.The following points have to be considered.

Like the Warrens they employ demonologist's and clairvoyant's as members of their investigative team.But they dont openly tag a certain location as haunted and use the role of demonolgist as the center of their investigations.They employ them more as consultants into aiding the scientific approach at documenting paranormal phenomonon.

As for Jason Hawes getting excited about photographic evidence captureing "orb" phenomonon.From what I have seen he is often quoted as this being the lowest form of evidence attainable while on investigation.Often pointing out lint and I remeber in one case attic insulation as being culprits for this as opposed to the paranormal.

Another big distinction too between the Warrens and the TAP's organization is from what I understand up to now.Not one single person has come forth stateing TAP's as embellishing claims of haunting in any of their investigations

In closing here I havnt in 30 yrs witnssed any kind of records during the amityville case conducted by the warrens devulging any hard scientific data - ie : documented thermo anomolies or magnetic fields etc.
Of course they or so to claim have photgraphic evidence.But again this is
really shunned upon as evidence even as comapered to documenting a cold spot on the premisis by a scientific insturment.

They drew their conclusions based mainly on physcic "impressions",going as far to claim the property was inhabited by the spirits of sick and dying native americans wich turned out to be a totally false claim after the fact.Its reasons like this that I consider the Warrens investigation to be totally irrelevant and a complete failure.
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Postby vampy1978 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:05 pm

TheVampireologist wrote:Vampy I think you're refering to dousing (sp?) rods.There is strong arguments to support their effectiveness in such things as pin pointing underground pockets of water for example.
.



ok so if they are used... they cant be 100% accurate. due to the possablity that there is pockets of water under the ground from where they are at. its great if your looking for water but... well i dont even know how excatly they work... electic energy... is what they detect. ok.
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Postby TheVampireologist » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:22 pm

oh what do you know

im getting so sick of how you have to "attack" every point I try to make on here. :evil:
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Postby vampy1978 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:32 pm

are you high??

lay off the vicodin and leave my boobs alone today !!

:evil:
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Postby quotestheraven » Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:25 pm

They ruled the place previously investigated by The Warrens to be haunted. Jason is highly unimpressed with orbs.

I've often suspected the Warrens of embellishing things to help sell books.
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:31 pm

TheVampireologist wrote:... I think you're refering to dousing (sp?) rods.There is strong arguments to support their effectiveness in such things as pin pointing underground pockets of water for example.


LOL Garbage. Dousing rods are (on the main) thought to be a tool of hucksters, specifically when used in 'paranormal' "research."

Fake people ...



The Matter of Dowsing
from Swift, Vol. 2, No. 3/4 January, 1999

By far the most common claim made for the Million Dollar Challenge offered by the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) is dowsing.

Dowsing is as strictly defined the claimed ability to discover underground sources of water or metals by means of a "dowsing rod." Another term used is "divining." However, this terminology and its scope have been expanded and is now used with a far greater range of meanings. Dowsing now includes the claimed ability to discover almost anything, from water and minerals to missing children and archaeological sites. Each dowser will have his or her specialty. The device any dowser will use ranges from the traditional forked stick to just the bare hand. Pendulums, bent wires, wands of various sorts, and swiveled rods and housings are commonly encountered. In every case, the device used is a system in a state of unstable equilibrium, something that cannot easily be kept in a steady condition, and which is subject to very slight tremors, twitches, or changes of inclination. We've seen an astonishing variety of metal springs, coils, wires, balls, threads and bobbing elastic devices, all trembling and vibrating freely, used as dowsing machinery.
[...]
Currently, several ?scientific? versions of dowsing rods which purportedly contain actual electronic circuitry, are being sold to government agencies in the USA for very high prices, as much as $14,000. One such stick, known as the ?DKL LifeGuard,? is endorsed and validated by scientists who certainly should know better.

Little Agreement
Dowsers seldom agree on the basics of their claims. Some will insist that rubber footwear or footwear made of other insulating materials must be used by the operator, while an equal number insist that such materials inhibit the effect , and must never be used. Those who use stiff wires bent at right angles and held in each hand parallel to the ground, may say that the wires will cross one another when the sought-after object or substance is encountered; just as many say that the wires will diverge. Every dowser has his or her own personal theory, rules and preferred techniques.

[...]

Some claim that their power is divine in nature. Some say that dowsing is a learned art. Most claim that anyone can dowse successfully, while others say that it is an inherited gift. Some deny that it is in any way "paranormal," while some embrace that definition. Dowsers will often scoff at the claims of other dowsers, and will have a very limited set of parameters that they will accept as viable.

[...]
Most dowsers claim 100% accuracy. Very few claim anything less than 90%.

A Wide Spectrum of Claims
Water dowsers are by far the most common variety we have encountered, and they, too, exhibit a wide spectrum of claims. [...] The list of elements and situations that they say can inhibit their performances is endless.

The bottom line is that they all fail, when properly and fairly tested. There are no exceptions. Even after they have clearly and definitely failed, they always continue to believe in their powers. Why should this be so?

The Ideomotor Effect
We are witnessing here a very powerful psychological phenomenon known as the "ideomotor effect." This is defined as, "an involuntary body movement evoked by an idea or thought process rather than by sensory stimulation." [...] The defensive reaction of most dowsers, following their failure, is to claim that they should not have submitted to any test, and will never do so again. And most will say that dowsing comes under special rules that deny that it can be tested, ever. The discouraging fact is that no dowser is ever convinced, as a result of proper double-blind testing, that they cannot dowse. Their need to believe is so strong and so ingrained, that they will refuse to accept any quality and/or quantity of good evidence. They have adopted a philosophy that shields them against reality.

[...]

Now, I am fully aware that the dowsers will read this discourse and will manage to completely ignore it. I regularly receive expressions of pity from them, for my inability to accept the reality that they have discovered. Many applications that are received at the James Randi Educational Foundation from dowsers will express great wonderment at why the million-dollar prize has not already been awarded, when dowsing is such an easy thing, they say, to demonstrate. Many are amazed that dowsing is eligible for the prize at all, since it is so widely accepted and believed in. And each dowser assures me that they are going to be the one to show me the error of my ways, and to dazzle me with a simple demonstration.

Excuses, Excuses
Each dowser goes away from any trial of their powers, dismayed by their failure, puzzled at the reasons for the failure, but always capable of coming up with a reasonable to them excuse. That excuse may be any one of many. It may be an unfortunate arrangement of the planets, improper temperature or humidity, a problem of indigestion, too much ambient noise or too much silence or a poor attitude on the part of the observers. These are not invented excuses; they are all drawn from my personal experience in testing these folks.

[...]

If you wish to see a full account of the most definite set of dowsing abilities ever conducted, you may find it in the first two issues of Swift, the newsletter of the JREF. Numbers 1 and 2 of volume 1 may be purchased for US$6, postpaid, from the aliress on page 32. We sincerely recommend that you read this account before proceeding with your application.


http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/
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Postby TheVampireologist » Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:46 pm

TheVampireologist wrote:
... I think you're refering to dousing (sp?) rods.There is
strong arguments to support their effectiveness in such things
as pin pointing underground pockets of water for example.

again -

(There is strong arguments to support their effectiveness)

hmmmmm.....Ya know I bet there are strong arguments put-forth
out there somewhere by many people to support their effectiveness
just like there are strong arguments out there to disprove their
effectiveness aswell.......see : )
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:03 pm

TheVampireologist wrote:hmmmmm.....Ya know I bet there are strong arguments put-forth out there somewhere by many people to support their effectiveness just like there are strong arguments out there to disprove their effectiveness aswell.......see : )


Typical BS from you. First you say there IS evidence, then when an actual scientific-based article proving otherwise is produced, now suddenly you change your babble to "I BET there is." And as usual, you don't even lift a finger to support your claim to the contrary, which is obviously par for you. But since you have admitted you've lied on this board now, no reason for anyone to take such insistences of yours too seriously, Stuzi.
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Postby BillyCigars » Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:36 pm

No need to get upset, we're just talking about divining rods afterall ;)

Just thought I'd share a weird experience:

About 8 or 10 years ago, I was visiting my folks out here (before I moved out here from NYC) and they had a problem with the septic system and needed to gain access to it.

My father lives on a 10 acre plot of land and his septic system access is covered by years of dirt and grass and was therefore completely hidden and basically forgotten about. In any case, he couldn't remember for the life of him where the access was.

Since it was several feet below the ground and there would be a lot of digging (and destroying the lawn), I suggested we use a couple of divining rods.

I had no idea how this was supposed to work or what the hell I was doing but I started out doing a 50 x 50 foot perimeter near the house, working my way outward. At several points, the rods either pulled away from each other or crossed. I made mental notes of where this occurred and continued on.

Long story short, I seemed to be able to narrow down the possibilities of where the system was and therefore via process of elimination, the access point. We went for it, dug at a certain point (based on what I "found"), and voila--paydirt!

I'm not sure how to explain it, and there are certainly a whole host of other explanations for it but I thought I'd at least share an experience that seemed to indicate that there was some validity to the use of divining rods :)
Last edited by BillyCigars on Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby vampy1978 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:39 am

persephone wrote:
TheVampireologist wrote:... I think you're refering to dousing (sp?) rods.There is strong arguments to support their effectiveness in such things as pin pointing underground pockets of water for example.


LOL Garbage. Dousing rods are (on the main) thought to be a tool of hucksters, specifically when used in 'paranormal' "research."

Fake people ...


http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/


fake people???


Typical BS from you. First you say there IS evidence, then when an actual scientific-based article proving otherwise is produced, now suddenly you change your babble to "I BET there is." And as usual, you don't even lift a finger to support your claim to the contrary, which is obviously par for you. But since you have admitted you've lied on this board now, no reason for anyone to take such insistences of yours too seriously, Stuzi.

shame shame on you persphone... i'm disapointed in you... and for the last time its SUZI!!!!!!!! you dont even know who your talking to you. lol now thats funny.

can you make a claim with out insulting someone... :shock: oh do i dare say it YES YOU INSULTED SOMEONE. again and again and again.

funny.[/size][/b]
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Postby Green Jello Shots » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:04 am

BillyCigars wrote:Just thought I'd share a weird experience:


Cool story, Billy. I wish I had thought of dowsing before I let my husband dig up half our yard when we were having septic problems last year. :lol:
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Postby Toukee » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:39 am

I JUST DISCOVERED SOMETHING BIZARRE ABOUT THE WARRENS - !!!!!!


well, about Ed anyway....some of you Amityville experts - I'm curious about this...


Is it already a known fact that "Ed Warren" is not Ed's real name? He changed his name to that - his real name isn't even close to "Ed Warren"
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Postby Dreamsaint » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:54 am

Toukee wrote:I JUST DISCOVERED SOMETHING BIZARRE ABOUT THE WARRENS - !!!!!!


well, about Ed anyway....some of you Amityville experts - I'm curious about this...


Is it already a known fact that "Ed Warren" is not Ed's real name? He changed his name to that - his real name isn't even close to "Ed Warren"



Really? Cool. Is his real name Robert Zimmerman? :wink:
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Postby Toukee » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:05 am

ummm...no.

I thought you knew everything, Saint. And it's just that there's some....I don't know how to say it..."weird stuff" with his real name. And not the kind of weird stuff that the Warrens would had preferred to have associated with their names, I think.

Sometime when I'm really bored, I'm going to do a lot of research into the Warrens.
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Postby Dreamsaint » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:15 am

Toukee wrote:ummm...no.

I thought you knew everything, Saint. And it's just that there's some....I don't know how to say it..."weird stuff" with his real name. And not the kind of weird stuff that the Warrens would had preferred to have associated with their names, I think.

Sometime when I'm really bored, I'm going to do a lot of research into the Warrens.



Not quite, I'm afraid (Bob Dyan joke). But what exactly do you consider "weird" about his birth name? I'm intrigued. :)
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Postby Toukee » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:29 pm

Give me a little while on this one!
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