Christopher Quaratino in Psychic World

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Victoria Principles
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Victoria Principles » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:37 am

Matt9290 wrote:
Victoria Principles wrote:You would be amazed at what AC and his deciple, one James Page were said to conjure up.
Actually a number of my colleagues in the UK (most of which have passed on now) knew Aleister Crowley, so I am well versed in his 'claimed activities' which have been exaggerated and blown out of all proportions.
Crowley was a heroin addict from a very early age, and by all accounts, the only demons he ever called up were fabrications of his own mind. Billed as the most evil man in England, this title came about mostly because he wrote for the Nazi's during the War.
Coincidentally I own a few of Crowley's personal belongings which were gifted to me when my old friend Eric Maple died.

As I said previously, if you believe that George was trying to conjure up demons in the Amityville house, and by some long stretch of the imagination, managed to become teach himself to be as good as Crowley (who never summoned a demon in his life) then Kathy must have known about this and had no regard for her children's welfare. Do you really think that is true?

I know George visited the witchcraft museum, but that just illustrated his open mind on the subject, nothing more. I still maintain that it was his open-mindedness which some malevolent spirit might have tapped in to, nothing more...
Crowley was called the world's most evil man well before the Nazis came to power. Crowley was booted out from Italy by Mussolini. There was no connection between Crowley and the Nazi's. That is an urban legend.

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Matt9290
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Matt9290 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:02 am

Victoria Principles wrote:Crowley was called the world's most evil man well before the Nazis came to power. Crowley was booted out from Italy by Mussolini. There was no connection between Crowley and the Nazi's. That is an urban legend.
Crowley did have a reputation long before the arrival of the Nazi’s, this is true, but it is a well known fact that Crowley was a racist and anti-Semite.
He visited Germany in 1925 where he was in contact with leading Nazis, although Crowley’s followers try and discredit this.
When I say that Crowley wrote for the Nazi’s, I do not refer to them as a whole, but he sent messages to certain individuals, who spread his words.
He influenced many people, and was peddling hatemongering in a time when it caused much damage – a quick example… Major General Fuller, a disciple of Crowley's, devised a system of "anti-Semitic magic" for thwarting any "Jewish attack of magic and gold" on all good Aryans (based upon Crowley’s teachings), this was published by the Sir Oswald Moseley's Fascist Quarterly… I could go on with worse examples, but don’t think it would achieve anything!

Having said this, I have a lot of ‘begrudging’ respect for Crowley, and I am sure many of his views were a product of the time (and environment) he lived in.

However, if you are trying to argue that George Lutz was somehow as good a practitioner of the arts than AC – then I fear you have been very mislead.
I also find it interesting that you rush to the defence of AC and sidestepped the question I posed about Kathy Lutz, which was:
“if you believe that George was trying to conjure up demons in the Amityville house, then Kathy must have known about this and had no regard for her children's welfare. Do you really think that is true?”
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Victoria Principles » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:15 pm

Matt9290 wrote:
Victoria Principles wrote:Crowley was called the world's most evil man well before the Nazis came to power. Crowley was booted out from Italy by Mussolini. There was no connection between Crowley and the Nazi's. That is an urban legend.
Crowley did have a reputation long before the arrival of the Nazi’s, this is true, but it is a well known fact that Crowley was a racist and anti-Semite.
He visited Germany in 1925 where he was in contact with leading Nazis, although Crowley’s followers try and discredit this.
When I say that Crowley wrote for the Nazi’s, I do not refer to them as a whole, but he sent messages to certain individuals, who spread his words.
He influenced many people, and was peddling hatemongering in a time when it caused much damage – a quick example… Major General Fuller, a disciple of Crowley's, devised a system of "anti-Semitic magic" for thwarting any "Jewish attack of magic and gold" on all good Aryans (based upon Crowley’s teachings), this was published by the Sir Oswald Moseley's Fascist Quarterly… I could go on with worse examples, but don’t think it would achieve anything!

Having said this, I have a lot of ‘begrudging’ respect for Crowley, and I am sure many of his views were a product of the time (and environment) he lived in.

However, if you are trying to argue that George Lutz was somehow as good a practitioner of the arts than AC – then I fear you have been very mislead.
I also find it interesting that you rush to the defence of AC and sidestepped the question I posed about Kathy Lutz, which was:
“if you believe that George was trying to conjure up demons in the Amityville house, then Kathy must have known about this and had no regard for her children's welfare. Do you really think that is true?”
I never said George Lutz was a good practioner of the magic arts. If George Lutz was that good, then he wouldn't have all these things allegedly following him and his family around. Crowley himself never took the proper precautions and had many tragic events in his life, though you can't just atribute it to his occult dabbling.

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Matt9290
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Matt9290 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:50 am

Victoria Principles wrote:I never said George Lutz was a good practioner of the magic arts. If George Lutz was that good, then he wouldn't have all these things allegedly following him and his family around. Crowley himself never took the proper precautions and had many tragic events in his life, though you can't just atribute it to his occult dabbling.
OK I may have taken your comments the wrong way Victoria - George obviously had an interest in the paranormal, as most people do. But I have no reason to doubt Kathy who said she blamed TM for triggering the events.

AC was in many way 'years ahead of his time' and even demonstrated signs of genius (in some aspects of spiritual understanding) - but he was a heroine addict and had some views which I personally find offensive. This is not to say I dislike the guy --- My view is that everyone is entitled to believe and say what they like! Many of the people I most admire, including scientists, researchers, politicians...all the way down to musicians, have some aspects of their personality or opinions, which I do not like or agree with, but I don't let it detract from the possessive aspects I like about them (if that makes sense)? And as you can probably tell, I do like a good debate!
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Re: Christopher Quaratino in Psychic World

Post by gmom » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:18 am

Wait, when they say "occult" do they mean Satanic occult or do they mean what Kathy Lutz herself said about opening themselves up to God knows what with that TM?
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Matt9290
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Re: Christopher Quaratino in Psychic World

Post by Matt9290 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:58 pm

gmom wrote:Wait, when they say "occult" do they mean Satanic occult or do they mean what Kathy Lutz herself said about opening themselves up to God knows what with that TM?
I'm sure they are trying to claim 'satanic occult' or some sort of 'witchcraft' but I have no idea why? Kathy already said she blamed TM - and if Chris or Danny are trying to say George was some sort of 'devil worshiper' then what are they saying about their mother? Obviously if they knew about it (at age 7 and 10) then Kathy must have known???
I cannot believe Kathy would have allowed that in a million years!
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Re: Christopher Quaratino in Psychic World

Post by Amityville Rock » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:24 pm

I'm really torn by this subject. Having known Lee (aka George) I frankly have a hard time reconciling the outwardly devote (though non practicing for political reasons) christian I knew, with the picture Danny & Chris have painted. I'm not saying it isn't true, just that in my mind it is a rather weird dichotomy.....
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gmom
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Re: Christopher Quaratino in Psychic World

Post by gmom » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:04 pm

Thank you for the responses...but where are they claiming "satanic" occult? I would like to read it. Thank you!
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Matt9290
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Matt9290 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:35 am

t00nCiNaToR wrote:
Although this is all one article it was split on to two pages - In the Part 2 Chris claims that George was “practicing the occult and called it up himself” Obviously quite a lot of what I was told was off the record, so never made it in to the article, as Chris was planning his ‘Halloween fireside talk’.

t00nCiNaToR wrote:
Matt9290 wrote: I wrote a follow-up article for the July 2012 issue of Psychic World, which enlarges upon Chris's claim.
Apparently George knew Raymond Buckland, and visited his Museum of Witchcraft ... The Museum closed in 1973, so this all had to have taken place prior to him buying the house.

Now I am no fan of Stephen Kaplin, but in his book The Amityville Conspiracy there is a 'throw away' couple of passages, which were recorded during a conversation he had with George about Witchcraft, and George mentions Buckland.

Kaplin asks: "Oh you've heard of Ray Buckland?"
George replies: "Sure I knew Ray; we had some interesting conversations about witchcraft when he ran the museum"

It is common knowledge that Kathy blamed a lot of their problems of Transcendental Meditation. And while I'm not trying to claim George was practicing witchcraft, I do think that armed with his small knowledge of the subject, and living in a house where only a year earlier such tragedies took place, I am sure that the 'atmosphere' could become overwhelming for the unwary.

The only thing I do know for sure is that both George and Kathy were not telling lies, and whatever manifested in the house followed them, and the subsequent owners never experienced anything! ]
Firstly I have to say that I was not surprised when Chris told me that George had visited a witchcraft museum in Long Island, as this was only further confirmation (for me) that George had an open mind on such matters. It is also a well-known fact that both George and Kathy practised TM (Transcendental Meditation), and George himself admitted on a “History's Mysteries” documentary in 2000 that he had: “played with an Ouija board as a child” but said it was apparently; “no big deal – just a thing kids would do.”
Coincidentally, if you think about it logically, anyone buying the house (following the Lutz) would have to be very closed-mined on the subject of the paranormal; otherwise they simply would not have lived in that house.

When I conducted the interview with Chris I honestly did not think that he was referring to George running around casting spells or chanting incantation trying to raise the dead, but I did think that it was possible that his 'open mindedness' on the subject was a BIG contributing factor to the cause of the haunting.
However, when I put the above pdf on this site, it seemed to support the idea that George was in to some sort of ‘Occult Practises’ beyond TM, which I do not think is true!

The problem seems to lie in the word ‘Occult’
Originally ‘occult’ meant “hidden from view” but in recent times it has become associated with pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

When Chris said in the interview that George was: “practicing the occult and called it up himself” I assumed the comment was a hazy memory from when he was age 7 and walked in on his parents practising TM – which must have looked very bizarre (especially in light of the events that took place in the house).
However, some of the comments I have read regarding George since conducting the interview would suggest that Chris actually believes that George was trying to call up something deliberately in the house!!!

I honestly do not think that Chris is making things up or trying to discredit George deliberately, but I do think that the issue has become very confused with the passing of time.
Put it this way, I’m 48 year of age, and the only memories I can recall of being aged 7 are very faded and were obviously formed in the mind of a 7 year old.
At that age we see things differently.
Maybe it is just me, but I have very little faith that I could recall anything from my childhood (which had not be repeated to me over the years so keeping it alive and fresh), with any accuracy.
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Matt9290
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Re: Christopher Quaratino in Psychic World

Post by Matt9290 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:47 am

gmom wrote:Thank you for the responses...but where are they claiming "satanic" occult? I would like to read it. Thank you!
Sorry I neglected to give an answer about “satanic” occult?
I don’t think anyone has mentioned it being “satanic” – it is the ambiguous using of the word ‘occult’ which seems to conjure up ‘satanic’ images in people’s minds… Although we did mention Aleister Crowley a couple of times, which probably didn’t help matters.
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Victoria Principles » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:33 am

Danny said the same thing that George was involved with the occult and Danny was 10 at the time. 10 year olds have more understanding what was going around them and yet he backs up what Chris says.

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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Matt9290 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:12 am

Victoria Principles wrote:Danny said the same thing that George was involved with the occult and Danny was 10 at the time. 10 year olds have more understanding what was going around them and yet he backs up what Chris says.
Maybe I was a late developer, but at 10 years of age (back in 1974), I still believed in Father Christmas! I also used to spook my younger brother with ghost stories!

But that aside... What exactly do Danny and Chris say? They say George was trying to conjure up something in the house?
Yet I have heard NO mention of how (i.e. what method) he is ‘claimed’ to have gone about conjuring up these spirits/demons!
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Victoria Principles » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:05 am

Matt9290 wrote:
Victoria Principles wrote:Danny said the same thing that George was involved with the occult and Danny was 10 at the time. 10 year olds have more understanding what was going around them and yet he backs up what Chris says.
Maybe I was a late developer, but at 10 years of age (back in 1974), I still believed in Father Christmas! I also used to spook my younger brother with ghost stories!

But that aside... What exactly do Danny and Chris say? They say George was trying to conjure up something in the house?
Yet I have heard NO mention of how (i.e. what method) he is ‘claimed’ to have gone about conjuring up these spirits/demons!
Most 10 year olds, at least in the US, either know the truth or get the hints that Santa Claus is a lie of their parents. Perhaps you should check out the "My Amityville Horror" for more information. I am not doing your homework for you.

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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Matt9290 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:59 am

Victoria Principles wrote:
Matt9290 wrote:
Victoria Principles wrote:Danny said the same thing that George was involved with the occult and Danny was 10 at the time. 10 year olds have more understanding what was going around them and yet he backs up what Chris says.
Maybe I was a late developer, but at 10 years of age (back in 1974), I still believed in Father Christmas! I also used to spook my younger brother with ghost stories!

But that aside... What exactly do Danny and Chris say? They say George was trying to conjure up something in the house?
Yet I have heard NO mention of how (i.e. what method) he is ‘claimed’ to have gone about conjuring up these spirits/demons!
Most 10 year olds, at least in the US, either know the truth or get the hints that Santa Claus is a lie of their parents. Perhaps you should check out the "My Amityville Horror" for more information. I am not doing your homework for you.

Touché – However, Father Christmas was a frivolous example to help illustrate the psychological mentality of childhood.
Do you REALLY think a 10 year old ‘thinks’ like an adult! Really!!! Don’t they ‘think’ like a child, which is what they are?

As to doing my homework… I can find nothing in regards to "My Amityville Horror" which states HOW George was allegedly doing this magnificent feat of conjuring up spirits/demons! It’s just so vague – almost like a Childs Memory
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Victoria Principles » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:44 am

Matt,

Danny, Chris, and the late Steve Kaplan all said George met with Ray Buckley and had an interest in the occult. George admitted that he looked for library books on the occult. If it quacks like a duck, then you know the rest. In defense of George if he was interested in the occult, he was far not the only American out there interested in it at this time frame. Many Americans were looking at alternative spirituality. Being interested in the occult doesn't mean the George was into Satanism or black magic. He may have been curious and inexperienced and a simple curiosity got out of control quickly.

An adult can remember what happens to them at 10 years vs 7 years old. They remember those times from an adult perspective, not as a 10 year old perspective.

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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Victoria Principles » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:00 am

Matt9290 wrote:
Victoria Principles wrote:You would be amazed at what AC and his deciple, one James Page were said to conjure up.
Actually a number of my colleagues in the UK (most of which have passed on now) knew Aleister Crowley, so I am well versed in his 'claimed activities' which have been exaggerated and blown out of all proportions.
Crowley was a heroin addict from a very early age, and by all accounts, the only demons he ever called up were fabrications of his own mind. Billed as the most evil man in England, this title came about mostly because he wrote for the Nazi's during the War.
Coincidentally I own a few of Crowley's personal belongings which were gifted to me when my old friend Eric Maple died.

As I said previously, if you believe that George was trying to conjure up demons in the Amityville house, and by some long stretch of the imagination, managed to become teach himself to be as good as Crowley (who never summoned a demon in his life) then Kathy must have known about this and had no regard for her children's welfare. Do you really think that is true?

I know George visited the witchcraft museum, but that just illustrated his open mind on the subject, nothing more. I still maintain that it was his open-mindedness which some malevolent spirit might have tapped in to, nothing more...
Matt, Did any of your collegues know one of Crowley's modern deciples named James Page. Mr. Page claimed to have conjuered up stuff and even bought Crowley's house on Loch Ness. Was he (Mr. Page) imagining all of this stuff as well?

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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by sherbetbizarre » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:07 pm

Victoria Principles wrote:Mr. Page claimed to have conjuered up stuff
He did?

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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Matt9290 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:57 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:
Victoria Principles wrote:Mr. Page claimed to have conjuered up stuff
He did?
Really Victoria... You want to use Jimmy Page as an example - Another heroin addict!!! It seems the only people able to conjure up demons are on drugs. I see a pattern forming. :fp:


This might interest you - A late friend of mine Andrew Green (the parapsychologist) lived not far from the English Horror writer James Herbert (James even based one of his characters in The Magic Cottage on Andrew).
Anyway, Herbert bought one Crowley's throne chairs, which Herbert put in the hallway of his house in Hastings. After a year, the floorboards beneath the throne warped... He said they looked like they had been submerged in water, but there was no way water could reach that part of the hallway!

Very strange!
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Matt9290
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Re: Couple of Christopher Quaratino (Lutz) photos from Frida

Post by Matt9290 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:05 am

Victoria Principles wrote:Matt,

Danny, Chris, and the late Steve Kaplan all said George met with Ray Buckley and had an interest in the occult. George admitted that he looked for library books on the occult. If it quacks like a duck, then you know the rest. In defense of George if he was interested in the occult, he was far not the only American out there interested in it at this time frame. Many Americans were looking at alternative spirituality. Being interested in the occult doesn't mean the George was into Satanism or black magic. He may have been curious and inexperienced and a simple curiosity got out of control quickly.

An adult can remember what happens to them at 10 years vs 7 years old. They remember those times from an adult perspective, not as a 10 year old perspective.
Ok Victoria, I agree with you about 10 year old memories (generally).

I’m not sure how well versed you are in Memory and Cognition in Psychology, so not sure if you are familiar with the studies conducted by professor Carole Peterson: But she did an interesting study, which was published in the journal Child Development, and is now considered ‘standard’ by psychology students.

Peterson's team interviewed 140 children aged 4 to 13-years-old, asking them to describe their three earliest memories. Somewhat surprisingly the youngest children could recall memories from as early as 18 months. Obviously the parents were present to confirm what the children were saying had actually taken place.
The team then re-interviewed the children two years later, asking them to recall those same early memories.
They found that those aged between four and seven when first interviewed could not recall their 'earliest' memories - even when prompted with specific clues.
However, a third of children aged between 10 and 13-years-old at the start of the study recalled the same memories at both time points.
The results suggest that solid, 'life-long' memories ‘form’ some time at or after the age of 10 - before this memories are more fragile and liable to fade.

So this fully supports your statement that 10 year old have better memories… But really only confirms that Chris’s claims cannot be relied upon - Phew!

There has been a massive amour of laboratory research involving normal people in everyday situations demonstrates that memory is not perfect. Evidence shows that memory can be influenced by other people and situations; that people can make up stories to fill in memory gaps, and that people can be persuaded to believe they heard, saw or experienced events that did not really happen. Studies also reveal that people who have inaccurate memories can strongly believe they are true.

The events that took place on Ocean Avenue, I’m sure you will agree, would have left Danny and Chris with early trauma.
Scientists and Psychologists believe that recovered memories - including memories of childhood trauma - are not always accurate. When people remember childhood trauma and later say their memory was wrong, there is no way to know which memory was accurate - the one that claims the trauma happened or the one that claims it did not. Add to this the age of Danny and Chris at the time of the events, and it does not fill me with confidence that what they are claiming is accurate - (hope that all makes sense)?
Now if Danny and Chris had spoken about George’s actions (in regards to their claims) while Kathy was still alive, and she had supported them – then I would have had no reason to doubt anything they are saying… And again, I’m not suggesting that they are lying, only misinterpreting events.

I honestly have no reason to support George, as I never knew him or had any dealing with him. If anything, I should (or would be expected) to support Chris, as when I spoke to him I found him to be a really nice guy, very down-to-earth and obviously someone who has struggled to come to terms with his life, which has been quite dramatic by anyone’s standards.
But I like facts --- And I’m not even sure polygraph tests would help solve this mystery, but it might give a lot more relevance to their claims!
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gmom
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Re: Christopher Quaratino in Psychic World

Post by gmom » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:34 pm

Matt, thank you VERY much for all of the information. I appreciate it!
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Re: Christopher Quaratino in Psychic World

Post by Matt9290 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:30 pm

gmom wrote:Matt, thank you VERY much for all of the information. I appreciate it!
My pleasure
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