Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the gun

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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scipio-USMC
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Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the gun

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:40 am

In the accounts I read and where he spoke he attributed it to his own intuition. Basically this was his mantra:

I did npt believe the gun could be melted, I thought it was more likely it was tossed in the water like the rifle, the pillowcase suggested to me it was thrown from the nearby Coles Ave dock. That is why he claimed he searched for a gun there.

But here he attributes it to Holzer's daughter and says she was absolutely right. Anyone still wondering why she is friends with him?

http://www.amityvillefilm.com/PsychicAs ... ville.html

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:33 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:Anyone still wondering why she is friends with him?
By rights, she shouldn't be friends with him in the first place, seeing as Shattered Hopes will essentially discredit her father.

But as she lied about her father's involvement to get around Shattered Hopes "no haunting" claims, then it's clear they are well suited for each other.

She was the first person who got onboard the Ronni Chasen project - apparently to test her psychic skills at the crash site.

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FoxyP
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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by FoxyP » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:55 pm

How do these people get around the absolute FACT, as determined by ballistics experts, that all the DeFeo victims were killed by A Marlin and that five of the six were shot with THE Marlin? There is no physical evidence at all that a handgun, any handgun, was ever fired in that house and certainly not on the night of the murders. Had divers retrieved a supermarket shopping trolley or a rusty old bike, would those too have been associated with the murders? They'd have as much relevance as a rusty, broken handgun part that could have been thrown there by anyone at anytime and for any reason.

There are some very unprincipled people surrounding the Amityville murders and each has his own axe to grind. One such was a so-called journalist who reported overhearing Mike Brigante telling Ronnie he didn't want to hear anything about Dawn and Ronnie was to stop dragging the family name through the mud - did he overhear any such thing? This same journalist didn't even know Dawn and Allison were killed in separate bedrooms. He also reported that a Government Agent had seen someone looking very like Dawn leaving the house with what appeared to be the murder weapon. Of course this couldn't possibly have been the murder weapon as it was later used to kill Dawn.

The 'Agent' did not report having seen Ronnie going out of the house in order to retrieve the Marlin, or returning to murder his sister with it. (If there was an 'Agent' watching the house that night, I will happily eat my hat)!

Other, unsavoury characters, suggested there was possibly an incestuous relationship between Dawn and Ronnie - there is absolutely NO evidence for such a disgusting accusation. Poor Dawn had no reason whatsoever to want her family dead. She had no intention of leaving Amityville to live with her alleged boyfriend in Florida because he did not live in Florida! These unsubstantiated slurs on Dawn's character must have hurt her family and friends terribly - shame on anyone who perpetuates them.

Fox
Formerly FoxyJ :)

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Shawn
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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by Shawn » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:10 pm

FoxyP wrote:How do these people get around the absolute FACT, as determined by ballistics experts, that all the DeFeo victims were killed by A Marlin and that five of the six were shot with THE Marlin? There is no physical evidence at all that a handgun, any handgun, was ever fired in that house and certainly not on the night of the murders. Had divers retrieved a supermarket shopping trolley or a rusty old bike, would those too have been associated with the murders? They'd have as much relevance as a rusty, broken handgun part that could have been thrown there by anyone at anytime and for any reason.

There are some very unprincipled people surrounding the Amityville murders and each has his own axe to grind. One such was a so-called journalist who reported overhearing Mike Brigante telling Ronnie he didn't want to hear anything about Dawn and Ronnie was to stop dragging the family name through the mud - did he overhear any such thing? This same journalist didn't even know Dawn and Allison were killed in separate bedrooms. He also reported that a Government Agent had seen someone looking very like Dawn leaving the house with what appeared to be the murder weapon. Of course this couldn't possibly have been the murder weapon as it was later used to kill Dawn.

The 'Agent' did not report having seen Ronnie going out of the house in order to retrieve the Marlin, or returning to murder his sister with it. (If there was an 'Agent' watching the house that night, I will happily eat my hat)!

Other, unsavoury characters, suggested there was possibly an incestuous relationship between Dawn and Ronnie - there is absolutely NO evidence for such a disgusting accusation. Poor Dawn had no reason whatsoever to want her family dead. She had no intention of leaving Amityville to live with her alleged boyfriend in Florida because he did not live in Florida! These unsubstantiated slurs on Dawn's character must have hurt her family and friends terribly - shame on anyone who perpetuates them.

Fox

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scipio-USMC
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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:27 pm

Rick Moran was completely full of crap about the whole DEA thing. People wiht a following seme to think they can get away with anything no matter how ludicrous.

As for Katzenbach first he twists the ballistics report by ignoring that all bullets exhibited the class characteristics of being fired by a Marlin 336c and pretends that the report doesn't claim such about item 33. He also completely ignored all testimony at trial (which included blow up exhibits of the various bullets) where Dellapenna testified item 33 was fired from a Marlin 336C. He doesn't quote such testimony at all and pretends it didn't even exist so that he can try to claim that DellaPenna didn't determine that item 33 was fired by a Marlin 336c though he did indeed testify such. Katzenbach reluctantly acknowledges that Dellapenna identified it as a 35 caliber bullet but claims he was wrong. Katzenbach claims the hand notes Dellapenna made leads him to believe it was a .38 special though Katzenbach did not analyze the bullet while Dellapenna did and though Dellapenna taught the subject while Katzenbach knowns nothing at all about firearms or ordnance.

By the way, on the report where Dellapenna noted that he determined they were all jacketed .35 caliber Winchester brand bullets is the same place he noted they had all been fired from a Marlin 336C. So that shows how dishonest Katzenbach is being in trying to pretend the report doesn't state such.

Hopefully somone here who has access to the second volume of Shattered Hopes will post the notations for the bullets. His website only provides the notations for item 38.

This site:

http://www.amityvillefilm.com/Discovery ... 20gun.html

I would like to see the notation made for at least item 33 but preferably all.

This prooves he has no idea what he is talking about:

"The bullet is 170 grains and has a diameter of .355, which is entirely consistent with that of the Marlin 336 rifle."

These properties are of the bullet fragment they have nothing to do with a Marlin rifle. A complete .35 Remington (that is the actual name of the round because Remington designed it. Naturally other manufacturers like WInchester then marketed their own version of the same round) bullet would be 100 grains and .358-359 in diameter so this fragment was not a fully intact bullet just a large fragment meaning some smaller fragments broke off of it.

The diameter of complete .38 special bullet is in the .357-.358 range so a hair smaller. It is also shorter. Both the cartridge case and bullet of a .35 Remington round are significantly longer than those of a .38 special. A 38 Special jacketed round will weigh 148 grains versus the 200 of the .35 Remington.

Katzenbach's theory is that item 33 was a larger projectile than a 35 Remington. He bases that on the hand notes Dellapenna made with respect to item 33. He claims the notes reveal it is materially different from other 7 bullets. Since the number 38 is bigger than 35 Katzenbach thinks that means a 38 special bullet is larger. Of course he is dead wrong. Few handgun rounds are larger than a .35 Marlin the safest bet is that a round larger is a rifle round.

To make matters worse the gun he found fired a smaller bullet than even a .38 special let alone a .35 Marlin rifle. The largest projectile that gun could possible fire is 38 S&W which is slightly fatter but also shorter than a 38 special. The jacketed rounds available at the time would have been 145 grain or less so even lighter than a 38 special jacketed round.

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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by Miz Kizzle » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:08 am

The whole "finding the second gun" thing is pretty pathetic. A teenager who spent an hour on the internet could have come up with more convincing "evidence" of a second shooter.

scipio-USMC
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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:12 am

Miz Kizzle wrote:The whole "finding the second gun" thing is pretty pathetic. A teenager who spent an hour on the internet could have come up with more convincing "evidence" of a second shooter.
There are plenty of crimes committed by a lone gunman who used multiple guns. Thus even if a second gun had been used that doesn't mean there had to be an additional killer anyway.

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cwf081166
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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by cwf081166 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:47 am

FoxyP wrote:There are some very unprincipled people surrounding the Amityville murders and each has his own axe to grind. One such was a so-called journalist who reported overhearing Mike Brigante telling Ronnie he didn't want to hear anything about Dawn and Ronnie was to stop dragging the family name through the mud - did he overhear any such thing? This same journalist didn't even know Dawn and Allison were killed in separate bedrooms. He also reported that a Government Agent had seen someone looking very like Dawn leaving the house with what appeared to be the murder weapon. Of course this couldn't possibly have been the murder weapon as it was later used to kill Dawn.

The 'Agent' did not report having seen Ronnie going out of the house in order to retrieve the Marlin, or returning to murder his sister with it. (If there was an 'Agent' watching the house that night, I will happily eat my hat)!
Foxy that journalist was Rick Moran, if you can call him a journalist. Someone else on this posting also said Rick Moran. Moran is another person that claimed to have his own Amityville Horror type of incident. In an interview I listen to on YouTube this past summer. Mr Moran claims he was there at the house that night back in 1974 with the rest of the local news media covering the story of the murders. Moran stated after he got home that night from covering the story, he pick up their family pet a kitten and the kitten had a seizure in his lap and the kitten died.

Mr Moran also has worked on stories about West Virginia's Mothman and the Manson family. Both cases he tried to make the story about himself. Moran claimed while investigating the Mothman there were Men In Black flowing,warning and harassing him not to look into the case. Moran also claimed while checking some information out about the Manson family they too were stalking him.

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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:21 am

Rick Moran is a dishonest hack. He is one of those so-called journalists who placed himself in the middle of everything and for sure made up sources and accounts for sure. Quite a few journalists from major outsets were eventually busted for making up sources and claims. I am sure many more did so but were not caught

One of the accounts that surely is nonsense is his claim that a police friend took him in to see the gruesome scene. Police do not guard a scene once they take away the evidence. They lock it up. It was not until after the haunting crap was reported that people wanted to break in to see the haunted house and that they needed to have police guard it. By the time it was guarded the scene was anything but gruesome.

Rick Moran’s claims constantly change, one of the tell tale signs of a liar. You would think that people making up a story would have their story nailed down. But they usually don’t make up everything at once they add over time. Instead of memorizing their fable and making new fictional details match they instead forget the lies they told before and usually contradict themselves. Ahem GERALDINE!

In one interview he seemed to suggest he was allowed to visit the house shortly after the police sealed it up before they even took away the bloody sheets evidence:

“At any rate, the first that I learned about this was one of my editors called me up and said, ‘Go out to Amityville, they just had a mass murder.’ And when I showed up on the scene – I was there – Paul Hoffman was there from the Daily News. As I said, he was one of the founding members of ASUP. Joel Martin, who was news director for WBAB radio on Long Island – who was also an ASUP member – was there, covering for his newspaper. … And so my first introduction to Amityville was the murders. Sometime after that I went out to take some photographs of the building in daylight, and the officer who was guarding the front door was a personal friend of mine. He said, "Do you wanna see the place?" So I was actually in the house, you know, long before the Lutzes even thought about buying the house. At that point it was a gruesome scene, but I felt nothing that would suggest that there was anything paranormal going on there.”

Conveniently he never names any of the supposed friends and people who supposedly gave him access or secret information. Thus there is no way to ask such people if he is telling the truth. Rom a historian standpoint if someone is unwilling to provide a way to test their claims then the claims are treated as unsubstantiated allegations and looked at skeptically. But the public usually eats it up which is the goal. These lies are for people who have no interest in thinking hard about the validity of claims reported but lazy people who don’t want to think for themselves and are apt to believe anything reported in the press.

Here is his take on how the murders went down, “Unfortunately things got out of control, and on the night in question – and this is my theory, and Ronnie DeFeo isn't saying that I'm wrong – Dawn killed everyone in the household, and then she went down and announced it to Ronnie, who was totally stoned watching a TV show on TV in the living room. And he was watching a movie called "Castle Keep." And he vaguely remembers somebody coming down to him in a black hooded garb and gloved hands – and that was pretty much what he claimed to remember when he was first interviewed. But what happened after that, I believe, is that Ronnie was totally blown away by the fact that Dawn had actually shot her younger sister and her two younger brothers. And Ronnie then shot Dawn.”

The interviewer did not press Moran about why Dawn would kill them but did ask about his evidence that she did so and Moran responded as follows:

”Well the strongest piece of evidence for it – the first and most important piece is that in the autopsy, in post-mortem, Dawn had powder burns to her right shoulder and powder marks on her right hand, which would be consistent with someone who had fired a rifle. That was number one. Number two – and this didn't come to pass for several years after this whole incident – I was in touch with an informant who worked for the Drug Enforcement Administration, who claimed that there was, in fact, somebody watching the house that night because Ronnie had said that he was running drugs off the Great South Bay in his speedboat – and then they had a boathouse that doubled as a garage, and that's how they would transfer drugs and take them into New York City. And they put somebody watching the house.

Now unfortunately that's anecdotal, you know, I mean I can't prove that or not; but the person that I interviewed claimed that on the night of the murder Dawn came out of the house, got into her car, made a left-hand turn, which would take her out to the end of Ocean Avenue, where they lived, which leads right out to Great South Bay. And as she returned a few minutes later – uh, when they were looking for the weapon, they asked Ronnie, "What did you do with the gun," and he said that he threw it out behind the house. Well they never found it there. And then they went diving at the other location – which is where Dawn would have been going if she made that turn and gone out to the end of the – there's no way to leave the point if you make a left-hand turn. And they found the rifle there.

Now the other [unintelligible] to that story is that Ronnie DeFeo was a gun nut, and he was really into gun safety. As a matter of fact he used to teach gun safety courses. When they got the rifle back out of the water, where it had been thrown, the rifle was loaded and cocked. Now Ronnie DeFeo would not have taken a loaded, cocked rifle and thrown it head-over arms to put it into the middle of that body of water.”

1) A. Dawn only had powder burns on her left shoulder not her hands. He flat out lied and made up the part about powder burned being on her hands. B. Powder burns are not evidence of firing a weapon but rather being near the muzzle of a weapon that is fired. The only way to get powder burns on her hands would have been for her to be reaching for the muzzle as someone else fired the rifle. A paraffin test, test for primer gunshot residue (PGSR) and that is the test for whether someone likely fired a weapon. Dawn tested negative for PGSR.

2) A. How would a DEA snitch be aware of whether the DEA was watching the house and hear about DEA agents claiming to have witnessed Dawn leaving with the murder weapon? All a DEA snitch does is feed evidence to the DEA the DEA doesn’t then tell them everything about what subsequently happens. At various times he changes his account of how he heard this DEA tale it evolves. Since it is so obviously made up BS though I will not bother to go into further detail. B) There is conclusive ballistic evidence that Dawn was killed by Ron’s Marlin 336C rifle. Not even Osuna and Katzenbach question that. So how could she have tossed the rifle in the water than later been killed with it? C) His account of how police found the rifle is BS. Ron told police he threw the rifle in the water at the mouth of the Canal. He pretends this is not the case and says that police just instinctively went to the mouth because the DEA account is Dawn drove left then returned and if you drive left there is no where to go except the mouth of the canal. In fact there are a number of side streets and the canal runs the length of the road, someone could toss the gun in at any point they want. Moreover the DEA supposedly did not talk to police about what they saw according to Moran’s own BS. SO how would police know she left and drove left? Ron said he drove to the end of the road and dumped the gun in that is why police knew to look there.

3) The gun safety nut part is the dumbest claim of all. There is no evidence at all he was into gun safety. Testimony at his criminal trial was that he was reckless with firearms. He constantly pointed loaded weapons at people and even fired at them. There was testimony of him firing in a bar parking lot after becoming angry. Davidge testified Ron shot at him while they were hunting and that he stopped visiting the DeFeo home or spending any time at all with Ron after Ron pointed a gun at him in the house in 1973. He said Ron had shot at him and pointed a gun at him too many times. Ron even accidentally fired a shot into the floor of a friend’s house. Police recovered the bullet and it was matched to the murder bullets. Thus even absent finding the rifle they had proof that Ron’s rifle was the murder weapon. There was no evidence at all he was into gun safety but rather only evidence he was reckless. Instead of admitting the truth he doubles down with the whopper of a lie that Ron taught gun safety courses. Mind you even people who teach gun safety courses have been known to handle guns unsafely at times. People who generally handle guns responsibly still sometimes keep them loaded. Someone planning to toss a weapon in the water not far away would not have much to fear about carrying a loaded weapon in the trunk it is not likely to go off and certainly not likely to go off by tossing it in the water. The gun in question didn’t have a hammer it used a firing pin. So even if her were into gun safety that would not make it unlikely he disposed of the weapon. But the gun safety stuff was all made up by him and the question is why was he so intent on lying in order to blame Dawn. As White Noise Radio pointed out Moran said it didn’t sit well with him that Ron would kill his younger siblings. Why does it sit well with him that Dawn would kill them? He never explains. Probably because of the sensationalism and the theory conveniently provides him with a reason to make up all his lies for him to tell. The truth is not amenable to his BS crap.

scipio-USMC
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Re: Alternative account from Katzenbach of how he found the

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:05 pm

Something I forgot to point out is that Moran's claim that Ron told police right away that Dawn did it is a lie. He didn't claim she committed the murders until 1990. His first drastic change came in 1986 when he claimed Dawn killed his father and that his mother killed all his siblings. At trial he did speak of being handed a rifle by someone in a cloak with black hands, he didn't say black gloves. In an interview with Holzer he admitted that he made this crap up and said it among other things in an effort to appear crazy so that his insanity defense would work. He admitted killing everyone himself and even said he felt he should have killed the rest of his extended family. Maxwell notes that there was a cloaked woman in Castle Keep. Indeed there was and that probably is what gave him the inspiration for this fairytale that he told at trial and later admitted was a fairytale.

Moreover, if she already killed everyone why would she hand him the loaded rifle? Did she want him to kill her with it? How did she get it back to toss in the water? Moran completely ignores the sheer absurdity of this point.


I just came across this which points out a lot about Rick Moran's credibility problems.


http://www.amityvillefiles.com/2009/07/ ... ad-source/


I especially love how the list was supposedly lost in a fire yet had been published before it was lost. if it were published they could point ot where the fact they could not means they lied about it being published. If they actually created a list as claimed then they should have had no problem recreating it. It is not as if Anson's book did not still exist to go over again to critique. They surely had to remember some of what they wrote. I have not looked at my thread tearing apart Ric osuna's book in ages but generally recall the arguments I made. They can't recreate the list because it never existed in the first place.

The authors did miss something.

“The good father was a regular fixture at the time of the investigation. Peter interviewed him in person several times at his parish and I spoke to him several more by phone and once in person in Rockville Centre. He was cooperative only because I had friends at the Diocese, who told him to cooperate"

First of all I love how he supposedly has all these friends in high places be it the government or even the Catholic Church. I'm a former alter boy who attended Catholic school through 8th grade, served with numerous Bishops, am now an usher and member of the Knights of Columbus and also assist with charities directly run by the diocese. Thus many clergy in the diocese know me since young. I have no pull at all though with the Bishop or anyone else in high places who can force someone to speak to me. My strongest relationship is with someone who is a church lawyer mind you so he works at the chanercy office. But he has little sawy over things.

Father Ray was not just a lawyer but a judge. As such he was not a parish priest he was a member of the chancery. How did they interview him at his parish when he had no parish? He was not a parish priest. This is a claim that would go over the head of someone not well versed in the Catholic Church but not someone like me. That is just one more detail to show how he just makes up things.

The overall pattern the authors note is spot on. He will never identify a source unless the source is dead and thus can't contradict his claims. When questioned he makes up even more anonymous sources to verify the accounts of the previous anonymous sources.

I also love how he tries to pretend that Michael Shaner was simultaneously an Amityville cop thus protecting the house and let him in for a look yet also working for the SCPD. His tale about Shaner being everywhere is absurd. The AMityville police turned the murders over the the SCPD right away because the Amityville PD did not work homicides Suffolk County handled homicides the Amityville PD was for minor crimes. The SCPD has various precincts and divisions mind you. Closed case files go to the records department. Yet we are told a dispatcher inserted something in the closed files (though he would have no access to files) which very well could have been in the DA's office at the time not in police custody because of DeFeo's pending appeal.

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