Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
scipio-USMC
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Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:59 pm

Firearms Basics

The 2 main components of a modern center-fire cartridge are the casing and the bullet. The back of the casing has a round compartment with the primer in it. Here is an image of the back of a center fire cartridge:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... SB_-_3.jpg

In front of the primer is gunpowder and then the bullet is placed in front of the powder. A portion of the bullet extends inside the case but much of the bullet protrudes outside of the case. The main component of ordinary bullets is lead. A jacketed round has a lead core with a metallic case around the exterior. The firing pin will strike and puncture the compartment holding the primer. The primer ignites the gunpowder. The burning gunpowder propels the bullet out of the casing and out of muzzle of the gun. Any unburned gunpowder plus various gas discharges also shoot out the muzzle.

The ignited primer sends a cloud of microscopic gunshot residue all around the gun. It will deposit primer gunshot residue (PSGR) on the hands and clothing of the shooter as well as anyone else in close proximity to the weapon. A paraffin test is a test for primer gunshot residue. Paraffin tests were performed on the victims and turned up negative. The records were rifled through countless times during the appeals and some records vanished including the paraffin test results but at trial it was testified to that the tests came up negative. The fact they are now missing doesn’t by any stretch prove they didn’t exist in the past. Indeed they could be sitting in the wrong file when someone returned them. The DeFeo file has various documents mixed in from other files.

Depending on the type of gun, the casing either automatically ejects from the gun after a shot is fired or is manually ejected. When the lever is cocked on Ron’s lever action rifle, the spent shell is ejected and a new round loaded into the chamber.

The barrel of a gun comes in two varieties smoothbore and rifled. Modern bullets are fired out of rifled barrels. Rifling consists of lands and grooves cut into the barrel. The rifling forces the bullet to spin. Think football. To make a football fly straighter and further you need to spin it. If you don’t spin it then it will tumble and not fly as far or accurate.

The lands and grooves cut channels into the bullets. They will make channels in the jacket of a jacketed round. Since the lead core is inside the jacket the barrel does not touch the lead core only the jacket. A bullet can deform in many different ways. Depending upon how much of the jacket remains to be tested will determine the ability to match up the rifling to a jacketed bullet. Sometimes the jacket is still attached to the lead core sometimes part or all of the jacket breaks off.

Rifling variables are:

The number of lands and grooves
The distance between the lands and grooves
The depth of the lands and grooves
Whether the twist is to the left or right

So the lands and grooves left on a bullet will be measured for number and size. Sometimes there will only be a single weapon of the caliber in question that uses the number of lands and grooves so pretty obvious which weapon it had to have been fired from. In cases where there are multiple weapons using the same number of lands and grooves then size and depth of the lands and grooves is much more significant to isolate which it was. Twist is an easy way to rule out weapons that use a different twist and be able to narrow down which weapons to look closely at. For instance Colt revolvers use a left hand twist whereas nearly all other manufacturers use a right twist so that is an easy way to tell whether to look at Colt and ignore most others or vise versa.

In addition to these class characteristics (all guns of the same kind will leave the same marks) there are incidental markings left on bullets also called accidental characteristics. Imperfections unique to a single barrel will leave accidental marks. These accidental marks are as unique as a fingerprint and thus enable an expert to tie a bullet to a specific barrel not just the type of gun.

A semiautomatic or fully automatic weapon automatically ejects the casing upon firing and a new bullet is automatically loaded into the chamber. A revolver keeps the casings in the cylinder until the shooter decides to reload and manually ejects them using the ejector. The lever of a lever action rifle expels the spent casing and reloads a new round. As the casings are extracted specific marks unique to the firearm (referred to as extraction marks) will be left behind on the casings. The firing pin will also leave an indentation in the casing. The location, shape and depth of this firing pin impression will be unique to a specific firearm. Thus by examining the firing pin impression and extraction marks on a casing it can be determined which specific weapon fired it.

DeFeo Case analysis using these principles

8 jacketed bullets were fired at the victims and all struck the victims no bullets missed.

The order of the shots according to Ron's confession were as follows: Bullets 1 and 2 into his father, 3 and 4 into his mother, 5 into Marc, 6 into John, 7 into Allison and 8 into Dawn. Here is how the police marked such bullets into evidence:

(Ron Sr.) Bullet 1) Item 44 (lead core) and 87 (metal jacket)

(Ron Sr.) Bullet 2) Item 23

(Louise) Bullet 3) Item 22

(Louise) Bullet 4) Item 33

(Marc) Bullet 5 ) Item 37

(John) Bullet 6) Item 38

(Allison) Bullet 7) Item 28 (lead core)

(Dawn) Bullet 8) Item 17 (lead core) and 51 (metal jacket)

According to the firearms report:

Item 16 (the powder on Dawn’s nightgown) was unburned gunpowder not PGSR. As mentioned earlier unburned gunpowder is shot away from the shooter not onto the shooter. Powder burns are deposited from being shot at or at least near the muzzle of a weapon as it discharged, they are not indicative of firing a weapon. PSGR is what gets on the shooter.

Powder burns were found in Allison’s eyes and on the shoulder of Dawn’s nightgown. A. Allison’s eyes were thus open as she was shot and thus it is likely she was awake. Dawns blanket was not covering her left shoulder and she was shot in her neck under her left ear. The powder burn on her shoulder was from being shot.

Items 17, 22, 23, 28, 33, 37, 38, 44, 51 and 87 were originally components of Winchester Western Super X Jacketed cartridges in caliber .35 Remington. Note that he determined the brand even not merely the caliber.

Items 17, 44, and 51 were determined to be lead cores only. Recall what I wrote earlier about the lead core being protected by the jacket thus the lands and grooves would not touch the core and would not leave any marks on them.

The other 7 were either part of the jackets or lead cores with the jackets still fully or mostly intact thus could be microscopically compared to test bullets.

Based on the comparison the report concluded as follows:

Items 22, 23, 28, 33 37, 38, and 87 were all definitely fired by a Marlin 336c because they exhibited the class characteristics. In addition all except item 33 were definitely fired by Ron’s Marlin. Item 33 did not have enough incidental marks to say for sure that it was fired by Ron’s Marlin simply a marlin 336C.

The report also references another bullet marked into evidence by police as item 70. It was determined that this bullet was also definitely fired by Ron’s Marlin 336C. This bullet was not removed from the crime scene or victims. This bullet was removed from the floor of a friend’s house (the Hick residence). Ron had fired a bullet into the floor of the Hick’s house. Witnesses told police this and they retrieved it to test that bullet against the bullets at the murder scene. Thus even if Ron had not told police where he dumped the rifle, police still would have known his rifle was the murder weapon since this bullet was known to have been fired from his rifle and matched most of the bullets used in the murders.

The sum of the findings:

(Ron Sr.) Bullet 1) fired by Ron’s Marlin 336C

(Ron Sr.) Bullet 2) fired by Ron’s Marlin 336C

(Louise) Bullet 3) fired by Ron’s Marlin 336C

(Louise) Bullet 4) fired by a Marlin 336C

(Marc) Bullet 5 ) fired by Ron’s Marlin 336C

(John) Bullet 6) fired by Ron’s Marlin 336C

(Allison) Bullet 7) core of the same caliber and brand of bullet used to kill everyone else

(Dawn) Bullet 8) fired by Ron’s Marlin 336C

So the bullet that killed Allison is the only one that the bullet analysis in isolation could not prove it had definitely been fired from a Marlin 336C. It is the same caliber and brand of bullet so could have been fired from a Marlin 336C but the markings on the bullet alone could not prove it was because the jacket was not recovered from her body. Moreover all of the others except one of the bullets that killed Louise were definitely fired by Ron’s Marlin 336C. Again though, the second bullet that killed Louise was definitely fired by a Marlin 336C.

The bullets were not the only things tested though. The casings were also tested. As I mentioned earlier casings can be tied to a specific weapon based on extraction marks and firing pin impressions. A separate report concerned the findings related to the casings. The 8 expended casings that Ron dumped in the sewer were all definitely fired by his Marlin 336C. So he definitely had fired 8 shots from it.

Katzenbach calls Item 33 the odd duck of all the bullets. The odd duck though is the bullet that killed Allison. All that remained of it was part of the lead core, the jacket broke apart so much the jacket fragments could not be recover, identified or tested. The bullet that killed Allison is the only one that could not be proven to have been fired for sure by a Marlin 336C based on the bullet evidence alone. It took the casing evidence to prove it was also fired by a Marlin 336C and not just any but definitely Ron’s Marlin.

For the sake of completeness I will mention that there were other metal pieces found that were too small to be identified. Specifically items 47, 48, 52, 55 and 71 were determined to be metal of unascertainable origin. They probably were parts of the bullets but were too small to say for sure. Thus when the examiner could not figure out something he noted it thus noted they were of unknown origin.

Here is a listing of where the bullets and jackets used to commit the murders were found so that you can see I properly allocated them earlier:

(Ron Sr.) Bullet 1) Item 44 (lead core) and 87 (metal jacket) –inside Ron Sr’s body

(Ron Sr.) Bullet 2) Item 23- Ron Sr’s boxspring

(Louise) Bullet 3) Item 22 Louise’s boxspring

(Louise) Bullet 4) Item 33 Louise’s boxspring

(Marc) Bullet 5 ) Item 37 Marc’s boxspring

(John) Bullet 6) Item 38 John’s boxspring

(Allison) Bullet 7) Item 28 (lead core) Allison’s bed

(Dawn) Bullet 8) Item 17 (lead core)- Dawn’s bed and 51 (metal jacket)- dawn’s body

The metal fragments of unascertainable origin were removed from the bodies of Ron Sr, Allison, Dawn and John.

The report noted that Item 17 was part of the lead core of a .35 Rifle round weighing 52 grains. It did not give the weight of any other pieces.

Hand notes that Katzenbach got from a FOIL (Freedom Of Information request) indicated the following:

23: 12 L&G .355 diameter 161 grains

22: 12 L&G .355 diameter 155 grains

33: 8 L&G remaining .363 diameter 169 grains

37: 12 L&G .359 137 grains

38: 12 L&G .355 diameter 170 grains

Katzenbach did not mention notes for the other 3 bullets. Obviously he took notes for them as well so either they are not in the file or Katzenbach intentionally omitted them because they further undermine his odd duck claim. Indeed the bullet that kills Allison is the only bullet he could not do a lands and grooves comparison for. That alone says it is the odd duck and if one wants to claim an error was made that is the easiest to raise.

While showing a photo of the handwritten notes this is what Katzenbach narrates:

“We uncovered a document that is in the handwriting of Alfred DellaPenna, and it identifies 5 of the slugs removed from the DeFeo victims. Among them is item number 33. According to the document, Item 33, the second bullet taken from Louise DeFeo has 8 lands and grooves remaining. It also weighs 169 grains. It has a diameter of .363. This is in sharp contrast to the other bullet fragments removed from the DeFeo victims. The other bullets have 12 lands and grooves, are between .355 to .359 in diameter, and weigh between 137 grains and 170 grains,. So the interesting part of Item 33 - the second bullet removed from Louise DeFeo - is that even if it's just a fragment, even if that's only part of a bullet, that bullet at 169 grains still weighs almost as much as the heaviest fragment with 12 lands and grooves, that was removed from the other victims.

.363 in diameter - that is more consistent with a round that would have been fired by a 38 handgun. The way that the official report on item number 33 was written, is it's written to sound like the rifling doesn't quite match the rest of the bullets, but that this bullet is consistent with being fired from a 35 rifle, so hence they conclude that all 8 of the slugs came from the same gun. But what I don't believe has ever seen the light of day is-- I don't believe that this document with DellaPenna's handwritten notes has ever surfaced."

Katzenbach is wrong on so many levels it is amazing.

First of all item 33 was not removed from Louise it exited her body and was in her boxspring. The man can’t be accurate about detials even by accident. You would think he would take great care to be factually accurate particularly after his nitpicking High Hopes.

Second, not all bullets displayed 12 lands and grooves. Allison’s bullet displayed none as I mentioned earlier. He only lists notes showing 4 of the 8 bullets displayed 12 lands and grooves. He lists no notes at all for 3 of the bullets.

Third the notes clearly state that there were 8 lands and grooves remaining. That means there originally were more but a portion of the bullet is missing. The missing part means it is impossible to see the marks that were on that portion. Presumably part of the case was missing thus a portion had no markings at all.

Fourth the firearms report did not indicate item 33’s rifling didn’t match the other bullets he said there were not enough markings to tie it to Ron’s rifle only a Marlin 336C.

Ron's rifle was manufactured in 1968. That year there were 12 lands and 12 grooves, the lands were .055 inches wide, .0028 inches deep. Marlin used microgrooving meaning they were not as wide and deep as traditional grooves thus more grooves were required to have reliable performance.

Revolvers chambered in .38 special by comparison had 5-7 wider, deeper grooves depending on the manufacturer.

The revolver recovered in Canal was an Iver Johnson Safety Hammer Third Model. The 38 S&W version had 5 lands and grooves of equal width (the .22 and .32 versions had 6 lands and grooves)

So how could he tell it was fired by a Marlin 336C when only 8 of the lands and grooves remained? Because as far as 35 caliber rifles of that era were concerned the microgrooving was unique to them and the distance and size of the lands and grooves observed were unique to it. Which brings me to point 5.

Fifth, his determination that item 33 was likely a 38 caliber round is absolutely impossible. Note how he doesn’t have a firearms expert render the opinion the reason why is pretty simple.

Ryan is operating under the assumption that a smaller handgun round is going to be bigger and heavier than a rifle round. That shows a profound ignorance. .35 Remington jacketed rounds weigh 200 grains. A jacketed .38 special round weighs 148 grains.

A .35 Remington jacketed round is .358-.359 diameter, a .38 special round is .357 in diameter.

These are the sizes before being shot. After being shot the bullets expand (open up so get wider) but also parts break off thus the largest remaining part will be lighter than a complete unfired bullet and can be smaller in diameter if enough parts break off.

Item 33 obviously expanded. That diameter would not even fit out of the barrel of a .35 let alone a 38 special (again the barrel of a .35 is marginally wider than a .38 special. It is not more likely that a fatter round was fired from a .38 special.

But the “smoking guns” that demolish his claims completely are the weight and number of lands and grooves.

Weight of Item 33

He admits that item 33 weighed 169 grains. A .38 complete special jacketed round weighs 148 grains. Even if not a single portion broke off after being fired it would still only weigh 148 grains. A bullet doesn’t get heavier after it is fired it gets ligher as shards break off. How could it end up 21 grains heavier than a full .38 special bullet? It can’t have been a .38 special it is that simple. Since part of the bullet was missing it HAD to be a larger projectile that weighed more than 169 grains originally. The only .38 special bullets heavier than the 148 grain were antiquated, stopped being made ages ago and were not jacketed. It was determined to definitely be a jacketed bullet. This is really enough of a nail in the coffin of his wild claim but I have another nail to hammer.

Most .38 specials have 5 lands and grooves, some have 6, the most any had of any brand in existence at the time of the murders was 7. There were 8 lands and grooves on item 33 and would have been more had the bullet been more intact. Even if there had been 8 total and would have been no more there were no .38 specials with 8 lands and grooves. Thus it is impossible a .38 special could have left 8 lands and grooves. Moreover the size of the lands and grooves matches no .38 specials.

The revolver recovered in Canal was an Iver Johnson Safety Hammer Third Model. The .38 S&W version had 5 lands and grooves of equal width (the .22 and .32 versions had 6 lands and grooves). All of these projectiles complete were still lighter than item 33 and item 33 has more lands and grooves than they can make and the size of the lands and grooves are different.

So the notes that Ryan points to do not in any way suggest that item 33 was not a 35 Marlin round. The notes definitively prove that item 3 can’t have been a .38 special, .38 S&W. .32 S&W or .22 rimfire.

Item 33 was definitely part of rifle projectile fired by a weapon that had a barrel using microgrooving. An expert in the field who taught the subject and did more tests than the notes reveal, determined it to be a 35 Remington round fired by a Marlin 336C. No evidence has been brought to bear by Katzenbach or anyone else to discredit the finding.

For sure Ryan’s theories are impossible based on the evidence he raised.
Last edited by scipio-USMC on Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

scipio-USMC
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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:02 pm

I mentioned it early on but forgot to highlight it at the end. The 8 casings prove Ron's rifle definitely fired 8 rounds. There were 8 bullet wounds to the victims, there were no bullets that missed the victims. For there to have been another gun used, one or more of the rifle rounds would have to have missed but it is impossible that no one would have found the hole made by such a bullet. Look in High Hopes to see a picture of the hole made in the floor of the Hick's house.

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msmart112
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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by msmart112 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:55 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:Look in High Hopes to see a picture of the hole made in the floor of the Hick's house.
Not from High Hopes...but here are three pictures of that hole...

Image

Image

Image
Image

scipio-USMC
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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:05 pm

msmart112 wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote:Look in High Hopes to see a picture of the hole made in the floor of the Hick's house.
Not from High Hopes...but here are three pictures of that hole...
Better still.

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by sherbetbizarre » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:04 am

scipio-USMC wrote:Note how he doesn’t have a firearms expert render the opinion the reason why is pretty simple.

Ryan is operating under the assumption that a smaller handgun round is going to be bigger and heavier than a rifle round. That shows a profound ignorance.
This is about sums up the entire scam.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:58 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote:Note how he doesn’t have a firearms expert render the opinion the reason why is pretty simple.

Ryan is operating under the assumption that a smaller handgun round is going to be bigger and heavier than a rifle round. That shows a profound ignorance.
This is about sums up the entire scam.
The scam clearly entails not consulting ballistic experts because they would reject his contentions out of hand.

It is obvious his conentions stem not from the facts but simply from what he has claimed all along and always wanted to claim. Indeed he himself admits that they didn't do the FOIL request and didn't receive these documents until the project was nearing its end. Years before he ever saw these notes he was insisting that item 33 was a .38 special round. Based on what? The claim used in Osuna's book of course about Kelske and the Python and alternatively the holster. At various times he says a handgun had to be used or the holster would not have been thrown away.

I have problems with some of what WIll Savive wrote in Mentally Ill In Amityville but at least he did consult an expert with respect to the firearm issues. He consulted with an expert about gun shot residue and powder burns so instead of misrepresenting that the powder burns on Dawn's gown indicate she fired a weapon.

Tyan tries to make it seem they looked at the evidence and made an assessment based upon it. Quite the contrary they made a conclusion and then sought evidence to try to prove what they decided to argue but they failed to find any.

Would someone looking at the evidence conclude it probably was a 38 slug?

Just pretend that someone posted the following to me in isolation without telling me what the expert who examined it in detail concluded:

Jackete dbullet, slug weighed 169 grains, diameter .363, 8 lands and grooves remaining, right hand twist. This doesn't give me the measurements of the lands and grooves which is something significant, particuarly since it is clear some of the parts of the bullet that had impressions on it were missing. It is obvious that the gun used to fire item 33 had at least 8 lands grooves but almost certainly more than that even. It is also obvious that the bullet at minimum weighed 169 grains when fired but almost certainly more than that. The diameter and weight together suggest a large round but without seeing the bullet and seeing how exapanded it was that doesn't help me make any kind of definite identification of the caliber.

With this limited information you can 1) rule out all firearms with a left twist 2) rule out weapons that fire a bullet lighter than 169 grains (and depending on how much is missing you can try to make a guess to its original weight but we can't examine it so can't try to make such a guess) 3) rule out weapons tha thave less than 8 grooves.

So the weapon at minimum had 8 grooves, at minimum jacketed rounds that could be fired from it weigh 169 grains and it has a right hand twist.

So you have to look through records to isolate guns with a right hand twist with at least 8 lands and grooves. From this list you look at which can fire a jacketed round weighing at least 169 grains.

That is if you want to follow the evidence.

Note how I ignored the diameter. I did so because we don't know if the bullet expanded or not based on the limited information provided. If it expanded than the oriignal size was smaller than .363 but if it didn't and a chink is missing than it was originally bigger than .363, there is no way for us to use the figure without knowing more so we set it aside.

Instead of using the weight and lands and grooves, what he should have he used, he used the diameter. But if ,363 was an accurate representation of the size upon leaving the barrel then it would certainly not point to a .38 special. The diameter of a .38 special is between .357 and .358 not .363.

I looked at a firearms report prepared from data acquired around the time of the murders. Among other things it looked at information reported by firearm labs. One of the tables concerned diameter of 38 caliber bullets that the labs analyzed. Most of the reports fell between .352 and .357.

.352 6 labs
.353 12 labs
.354 10 labs
.355 8 labs
.356 10 labs
.357 9 labs
.358 3 labs

12 labs reported diameters under .352, only 3 labs reported diameters over .358 of these 3 guess how many were over .361- only 1.

So out of 73 labs only 1 reported a diameter over .361 and there were only 3 total over .358. What was the diameter he was making the big deal out of? .363 How on Earth could a diameter of .363 be most likely a .38 special given these figures? That's bigger than the barrel diameter of a 38 special and clearly it is not usual for the bullets to end up at a diameter of .363. It is clearly unusual to be greater than .358 let alone for .363 to be average for a .38 slug.

Someone who interviews Ryan should challenge him to explain the basis for his assertion that the .363 diameter is associated with a .38 special and contront him about the lands and grooves and weight issue since no .38 specials in existence at the time in question had 8 lands and grooves and did not use jacketed rounds heavier than 148 grain. I would certainly confront him if I were interviewing him. At the end of the day the evidence he cited conclusively rules out the possibility of the round being .38 special or being fired by the gun he found in the Amityville Canal.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:36 pm

Some things to clarify

1) The reason why I keep saying no 38 specials at the time of the murders had 8 or more lands and grooves.

In the 1990s a number of companies began toying with microgrooving handgun barrels. Charter Arms went out of business and a new company bought the name and patents and began manufacturing a 38 special with 8 lands and grooves. Other manufacturers have toyed with more than 8 even, I am not sure if any have been put into production though. I know for a fact Charter has put them into production and sold a large number.

The 38 specials for sale at the time of the murders were:

Colt- 6 L&G left twist

S&W- 5 L&G right twist

Ruger- 5 L&G right twist

Charter Arms- 6 L&G right twist

Taurus- made with 5 or 6 L&G right twist

Rossi- 6 L&G right twist

Hawes (US distributer of Sauer firearms) 6 L&G right twist

Various other international revolvers that might have found their way to the US were basically S&W copies with 5 L&G and small number had 6.


"Most .38 specials have 5 lands and grooves, some have 6, the most any had of any brand in existence at the time of the murders was 7."

This was supposed to read the most any had a the time of the murders was 6. "7" was a typo which I can't edit.

2) Just because there were only 8 remaining L&G doesn't mean it is not possible to use math to calculate how many total there would have been if the entire jacket had been present. There are often times where only a portion of the jacket is present. By measuring the L&G it is possible to extrapolate. The hand note did not provide enough information to do that but no doubt Della Penna performed the measurments and that is how he concluded it was fired from a Marlin 336C having 12 L&G rifling in it.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:15 pm

I was emailed the following question:

"Does the evidence Ryan cited call into question the assessments made by the expert about the bullet? I understand that the caliber Ryan chose as an alternative can't be correct but could it have been a different caliber than the expert determined?"

There are actually 2 questions here. One is whether item 33 could have been a different caliber than Dellapenna determined and the other is whether the notes that Katzenbach pointed to call into question DellaPenna's assessments.

1) The notes don't cast doubt on Dellapenna's determination.

A) 8 lands and grooves was declared to be a partial figure which means there almost certainly were more. This doesn't disprove that the weapon that fired it could have had 12. This prong simply proves the minimum number the weapon had was 8. The rifle in question had 12 lands and grooves so more than 8. SInce it is not less than 8 we are fine this prong doesn't disprove DellaPenna's assessment.

B) The weight of a full .35 remington bullet is 200 grains. It is usual for some parts to break off upon impact and thus for the projectile to be lighter than when it is complete. The fact that item weighed 169 grains simply proves that the complete projectile had to weigh at least this amount. Since the bullet he identified it as being is greater than 169 grains his assessment is not challenged.

C) The diameter of an unfired .35 remington bullet is .358-.359 typically. Item 33 was .363 though. Does this call into question his assessment and suggest the bullet was a larger caliber? We don't have enough information to make hat assessment. Since bullets exapnd and deform upon impact they cna sometimes end up being wider than they are before being shot. You have to visually look at it to see if it expanded or not and thus take that into account. The diameter on its own without more information about how complete it was or how much it expanded or deformed doesn't tell us much at all one way or the other. So it is not enough to cast doubt. It certainly doesn't disprove the assessment since it is enitrely possible for a .35 remington round to expand and end up being .363 in diameter.

2) In theory it is possible that item 33 was a larger caliber than .35 remington but the limited evidence in th enotes certainly doesn't prove that it had to be. The notes don't take into account other analysis done on item 33 or the fact that all 8 spent casings matched Ron's rifle. Those casings prove Ron's rifle fired 8 rounds. Since there were 8 bullet wounds the only way another gun could have fired item 33 is if 1 of those 8 rounds missed. An exhaustive search turned up no bullets that missed and none of the subequent owners found any bullet holes in the wall or floor.

The bottom line is that there is zero reason to doubt DellaPenna's findings based on these notes. Only if a detailed analysis of item 33 was performed and the size of the lands and grooves turned out to be different than those of a Marlin 336C woudl there be a reason to doubt his findings. Of Course that was not done. For instance, suppose by using math to extrapolate it were determined that there would have been 10 lands and grooves and that the size of the 8 lands and grooves are different than the size of those left on the other 6 bullets that had striations. That would seriously call his claims into question. No detailed analysis of the sort was done and these notes don't suggest one is necessary since the findings are not contradicted by the notes.

If people have more questions I hope they will ask here in the open. I want to try to make things as clear as possible so people can understand the firearms evidence and not be mystified by it.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by Forsberg21 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:47 pm

Excellent and thorough as always, thank you scipio-USMC

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:30 pm

Forsberg21 wrote:Excellent and thorough as always, thank you scipio-USMC
My hope is that it is also easy to understand. I hope everyone can understand how the evidence cited by Katzenbach actually proves his claims to be impossible.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by astonio » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:50 pm

You've decimated the foundation of the entire Shattered Hopes 3-part documentary.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:37 pm

astonio wrote:You've decimated the foundation of the entire Shattered Hopes 3-part documentary.

This is only one of the pillars. The other pillars were decimated previously by others. I added to the evidence against the other pillars but they were already proved BS without my help. As a whole though Shattered Hopes is in shambles if anyone actually cares to look at the facts instead of just believing the made up facts they present. Who knows what crap they will do in part III with the haunting aspect. Geraldine can be proven a liar and they still use dher so who knows what liberties they will take on the hauntings.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by astonio » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:38 pm

It's embarrassing, at the least. Prior to SH's release, Ryan ardently stated he conducted his own research separate, but aligned to TNTDD; Osuna's tale. He went headstrong into fallible paths of research; Geraldine's take, the Nonnewitz', the "2nd gun". The 2nd gun was his coup de grâce, per se, but enough to garner temporary interest via CBS 2 News in NYC. The listing and expounding on the ballistics report above...documents he should ALSO be in possession of...it destroys his revision. Utterly. How can he even refute it? There's no denying. You even provided him with what could have been questionable, Allison's recovered lead core....but noooo. I remain surprised with those in his circle and his fan base who can review his account vs. the evidence from the case and still back him. Amazing.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by kathyM » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:03 pm

He doesnt like it when you question his research. He will probably threaten to sue you too Scipio. :naughty:

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:44 pm

kathyM wrote:He doesnt like it when you question his research. He will probably threaten to sue you too Scipio. :naughty:
The best he could do was ban me from his facebook page because he has no way to refute my arguments and doesn't want the morons following him to see the truth.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:28 pm

I think I sufficiently established that item 33 can't have been a ,38 special bullet as claimed by Katzenbach. Here is more evidence related to his bogus attempt to say that the gun he found was a 38 special.

On his movie website he posted

Image


and wrote: "ABOVE, One of the documents that caught Ryan Katzenbach's attention was a witness statement regarding one of the individuals named as a participant in the murders and this individual's acquisition of 2 .38 revolvers -- one which was known to remain in their possession at the time the DeFeo murders occurred. That gun has never been accounted for."

This witness statement was mentioned in High Hopes. There were no individuals plural named as participants there was a single participant- Ron. This statement is describing weapons that friends knew Ron Jr to have owned. I love the deception to try to make it appear this statement could have been about someone else. No one knows if Ron still had it in his possession at the time of the murders or sold it. His friends were not always around to see what he was doing.

At any rate the gun Katzenbach is referring to that Ron still might have owned was a blued snub nose .38 special. The gun Ryan found was not a .38 special let alone snub nose .38 special. But Ryan didn't care all he wanted was to find a gun of any kind and then he would declare it was linked to the crimes regardless of whether it was the type he was looking for.

The following photos are of complete models of the gun that Ryan found (Iver Johnson safety hammer third model):

Image

Image

The following photo is of an S&W top break revolver chambered in .38 S&W next to a S&W side loading snub nose .38 special

Image

The gun Ryan found might have been chambered in .22 or .32 S&W it might not have been a .38 S&W but .38 S&W is the largest caliber it came in. If it was .38 S&W the barrel and cylinder are identical in size to this S&W above. If you look at both photos you can see the handle on the S&W is little different and it has an internal hamer whereas the Iver Johnson has an external hammer but the missing portion of the gun would be identical to this S&W top break in size. Note how much shorter the cylinder is on the .38 S&W because the .38 special is a larger bullet. The snub nose also holds 6 shots compared to 5 for the top break so the cylinder has a larger diameter on the snub nose model. Ryan intentionally ignored this to falsely assert the gun he found was probably a 38 special though it clearly was not. no way would both of these utilize the same holster. Recall that the holster in the sewer is also one of the reasons Katzenbach insists a handgun was used.

Here are the 2 cartridges side by side

Image

I explicitly confronted Ryan on his facebook page about .38 S&W and .38 special being 2 different calibers and challenged him to how the gun he fould could be the .38 special snub nose when the Iver Johnson was not available in .38 special and not a snub nose. He deleted my posts and banned me because he didn't want others to see that I exposed his deception and he had no way to respond to prove me wrong.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by t00nCiNaToR » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:56 am

Not sure what you mean by this ".38 S&W and .38 special being 2 different calibers" they're not different Calibers, they're both .38.

The whole point of the Colt Python being used was the fact it could shoot .357 or .38 Specials(All .357mag pistols can). so in fact, the bullets would have been .35cal. like the Marlin, I see no point in arguing that a .38 Special or a .38 was used when that would be easily proven during autopsy. :breakdance:
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:32 pm

t00nCiNaToR wrote:Not sure what you mean by this ".38 S&W and .38 special being 2 different calibers" they're not different Calibers, they're both .38.

The whole point of the Colt Python being used was the fact it could shoot .357 or .38 Specials(All .357mag pistols can). so in fact, the bullets would have been .35cal. like the Marlin, I see no point in arguing that a .38 Special or a .38 was used when that would be easily proven during autopsy. :breakdance:
38 S&W and .38 special are indeed two different calibers. A gun that can fire a .38 S&W can't fire .38 special nor can a gun that can fire .38 special fire 38 S&W.

38 S&W is also known as 38 short the same way 380 is known as 9mm short. .38 S&W and .38 special are not the same caliber anymore than 9mm short and 9mm Luger are the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_S%26W

The fact that 38 S&W is different than 38 Special is significant because it shows how Katzenbach doesn't care about the truth..

Ryan asserts item 33 was a 38 special round. Ryan also asserts the handgun that was known to have been owned by DeFeo was a 38 special, specifically a blued snubnose 38 special. Yet Ryan found a gun that was neither chambered in 38 special nor reportedly owned by DeFeo and asserts he found the gun that fired item 33.

The largest bullet that could be fired from the gun he found is 38 S&W, a complete FMJ 38 S&W round weighs significantly less than item 33 which was only afragment. Moreover no guns that fire 38 S&W have more than 6 lands and grooves. So his claim that the gun he found could be used is completely false it is impossible for that gun to have fired item 33.

Since 38 special is different than 38 S&W a different inquiry is needed to rule out 38 S&W but it likewise is ruled out because at the time of the murders no 38 specials had more than 6 lands and grooves and the weight of a complete FMJ round was less than item 33 which was only a fragment.

Ryan asserted that item 33 was a larger round than 35 caliber. Neither the .38 special nor the 38 S&W are larger rounds than the 35 claiber they are smaller rounds. There is an old 38 special round equal in weight to the 35 caliber but not larger. It was the 200 grain unjacketed Super police. Of course item 33 was a jacketed round so rules that out. But Katzenbach didn't claim they were equal he actually claims item 33 was a larger round than 35 Remington which of course he simply made up. What evidence is there to suggest it was a larger round than 35 remington? Nothing.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by t00nCiNaToR » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:33 pm

There is a bit of confusion there in the .38 Special bullet they are referring to the diameter of the case and not the .35 cal bullet, calibers are always measured in the diameter of the round and not the weight or height of it...

But Katzenbach knows nothing anyhow...
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:40 pm

t00nCiNaToR wrote:There is a bit of confusion there in the .38 Special bullet they are referring to the diameter of the case and not the .35 cal bullet, calibers are always measured in the diameter of the round and not the weight or height of it...

But Katzenbach knows nothing anyhow...
.38 S&W and .38 special don't have the same diameter anyway. .38 S&W has a larger diameter than 38 special. For that matter 35 Remington also is slightly larger in diameter. The mean 35 Remington bullet is .358-359, mean 38 S&W .360-.361 and 38 special .357-.358.

In the recent High Hopes Amityville documentary Katzenbach reiterated his claim that item 33 was a bigger bullet than the other 7 and based on that as well as the number of lands and grooves it was thus consistent with 38 special. Of course he is totally wrong.

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Re: Katzenbach's firearms claims crash and burn completely

Post by Brendan72 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:02 am

astonio wrote:You've decimated the foundation of the entire Shattered Hopes 3-part documentary.
I don't mind a good 3-part trilogy, either. :)
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