Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his website

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
scipio-USMC
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Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his website

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:58 pm

The following quote is from the movie website and can be found here:

http://www.amityvillefilm.com/Contradic ... livan.html


"The notable passage is that Item 33 "Failed to display a sufficient quantity of identifying striae to ascertain if it had been fired in Item 82." [Note, Item 82 is the Marlin rifle] In the passage below it, DellaPenna states conclusively, however, that the rest of the bullets "had been fired in the submitted Marlin .35 caliber rifle..."

Those who refuse to accept any suggestion of an accomplice or second gun cling tight to the paragraph just below this passage wherein it is stated "All the expended bullets and "jackets" displayed rifling impressions indicating (emphasis added by us) that they had been fired in a Marlin Firearms Co. .35 caliber rifle." Those who contend that there was not a second caliber of gun used claim that the bullet was so badly damaged and fragmented that it was not possible to obtain a clean "striae" off the bullet fragment which is why it doesn't show the exact rifling impressions. This is stated despite the fact that no where does it specifically state in any official report that the inconsistent or lack of "sufficient quantity of identifying striae" is the result of too much damage. The claim is pure supposition on the part of the armchair detectives out there."

Katzenbach is out and out ignoring the assessment by DellaPenna in the report which clearly states item 33 was:

1) a fragment from a jacketed 35 caliber Winchester brand bullet

and

2) was fired by a Marlin 336C but can't be tied by the striations on the bullet to Ron's marlin 336C


Those who cite the report to contradict Katzenbach are fully accurate in what it states. There is no need for anyone citing this report to justify anything in it. If Katzenbach wants to refute it then the burden is on him do so. Instead he tried to pretend the report doesn't state item 33 was a 35 caliber bullet that was fired by a Marlin rifle. It does indeed state such though his critics are right and he is wrong.

He is also dead wrong about us not knowing why the stria didn't match completely. We know why it didn't match, the entire jacket wasn't present. Only a portion of the jacket was present and that portion present had impressions from 8 lands and grooves. The part of the jacket missing had more land and groove impressions so we know that the gun that fired item 33 had more than 8 lands and grooves. So the reason why it could not be matched completely is part of the jacket containing the stria was not present.


He continued with the following:

"Lastly, and most importantly, the report we've referenced herein is but ONE document of a FEW documents that deals with ballistics. Some of those, before this project, I believe have never seen the light of day. These documents will be seen in Shattered Hopes. They demonstrate, clearly, that the "odd duck" in terms of bullets IS, factually, Item 33. The markings are different; the width of the bullet is different among other factors and the expended fragment is one of the heavier fragments removed from any of the victims."

In High Hopes Gerard Sullivan pawns off the idea that all 12 bullets were conclusively the "same" in their striae. Obviously, Sullivan knew this was not so cut-and-dried, but he skirted the issue instead of going into a comprehensive ballistics discussion. Such a discussion was a slippery slope for Sullivan whereupon he would have to address the possibility of another firearm being used in the commission of the crime. Obviously, this was not something Sullivan was willing to discuss."

High Hopes just repeats the assertions made by the ballistic expert which the defense was unable to impeach at trial. The ballistic expert testified that all 8 bullets were 35 caliber rifle rounds, that the fragments themselves establish all but Allison's bullet were fired by a Marlin 336C, that all 8 spent shell casings were recovered and all 8 were fired by Ron's marlin 336C and that this evidence in combination proves all 8 bullets were fired by Ron's rifle. Katzenbach suggests High Hopes presented soemthing different than the expert testified to at trial and concluded in his report but that is false. High Hopes ran with DellaPenna's assessment and accurately reported his assessmnet.

The claim item 33 had different markings is misleading. With the exception of the bullet that killed Allison and item 33 all bullets had their jacket all the way around the fragment so the entire profile of the barrel of the weapon that fired them could be obtained. The bullet that killed Allison had none of the jacket intact and item 33 only had a portion of the jacket. The portion that existed had marking from 8 lands and grooves. If the entire jacket were present there would have been markings from more lands and grooves thus more than 8. Katzenbach presents the misleading claim that item 33 was definitely fired by a gun with different characteristcs than Ron's rifle but that is wrong. The equivalent situation in a DNA test would be if one sample had a complete profile of all genetic markers but another sample had a partial profile thus was missing some markers. Suppose the complete profile matched a killer completely and the markers that existed from the partial profile matched. The missing markers might match or might not match. So it is possible the partial was also his but it is not 100 definite. That is the same thing with the stria on item 33 they could match Ron's but since some was missing we can't be sure just by looking at the stria you have to look at other evidence to figure out for certain.

We now have seen the rest of Katzenbach's supposed evidence and it proves the complete opposite of what he asserts. His claim gets a pants on fire rating.

The fragment weighs more than a complete 38 special bullet and no 38 specials in existence at the time of the murders had more than 6 lands and grooves yet by his own admission item 33 was fired by a gun possessing more than 8 lands and grooves. His claim these comport with 38 special characteristics are out and out false it is impossible to have been 38 special as he contends. However these characteristics do not rule out DellaPenna's assessment.

The 35 caliber rounds weighted 200 grains so 169 grains for apartial bullet is perfectly reaosnable indeed it is siilar to the weight of some other fragments matched to Ron's rifle. Ron's rifle had 12 lands and grooves so more than 8 and thus could have fired the wepaon. When you add the fact all 8 spent casings were fired by ROn's rifle it clinches things. Katzenbach ignores the fact 8 shell casings were recovered and that if his claims were true about a different gun of a different claiber being used then only 7 would have been recovered...

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:00 pm

Will get back. Kentucky is getting ready to take the floor and that's TOP PRIORITY now!

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:50 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:The following quote is from the movie website and can be found here:

http://www.amityvillefilm.com/Contradic ... livan.html


"The notable passage is that Item 33 "Failed to display a sufficient quantity of identifying striae to ascertain if it had been fired in Item 82." [Note, Item 82 is the Marlin rifle] In the passage below it, DellaPenna states conclusively, however, that the rest of the bullets "had been fired in the submitted Marlin .35 caliber rifle..."

Those who refuse to accept any suggestion of an accomplice or second gun cling tight to the paragraph just below this passage wherein it is stated "All the expended bullets and "jackets" displayed rifling impressions indicating (emphasis added by us) that they had been fired in a Marlin Firearms Co. .35 caliber rifle." Those who contend that there was not a second caliber of gun used claim that the bullet was so badly damaged and fragmented that it was not possible to obtain a clean "striae" off the bullet fragment which is why it doesn't show the exact rifling impressions. This is stated despite the fact that no where does it specifically state in any official report that the inconsistent or lack of "sufficient quantity of identifying striae" is the result of too much damage. The claim is pure supposition on the part of the armchair detectives out there."

Katzenbach is out and out ignoring the assessment by DellaPenna in the report which clearly states item 33 was:

1) a fragment from a jacketed 35 caliber Winchester brand bullet

and

2) was fired by a Marlin 336C but can't be tied by the striations on the bullet to Ron's marlin 336C


Those who cite the report to contradict Katzenbach are fully accurate in what it states. There is no need for anyone citing this report to justify anything in it. If Katzenbach wants to refute it then the burden is on him do so. Instead he tried to pretend the report doesn't state item 33 was a 35 caliber bullet that was fired by a Marlin rifle. It does indeed state such though his critics are right and he is wrong.

He is also dead wrong about us not knowing why the stria didn't match completely. We know why it didn't match, the entire jacket wasn't present. Only a portion of the jacket was present and that portion present had impressions from 8 lands and grooves. The part of the jacket missing had more land and groove impressions so we know that the gun that fired item 33 had more than 8 lands and grooves. So the reason why it could not be matched completely is part of the jacket containing the stria was not present.


He continued with the following:

"Lastly, and most importantly, the report we've referenced herein is but ONE document of a FEW documents that deals with ballistics. Some of those, before this project, I believe have never seen the light of day. These documents will be seen in Shattered Hopes. They demonstrate, clearly, that the "odd duck" in terms of bullets IS, factually, Item 33. The markings are different; the width of the bullet is different among other factors and the expended fragment is one of the heavier fragments removed from any of the victims."

In High Hopes Gerard Sullivan pawns off the idea that all 12 bullets were conclusively the "same" in their striae. Obviously, Sullivan knew this was not so cut-and-dried, but he skirted the issue instead of going into a comprehensive ballistics discussion. Such a discussion was a slippery slope for Sullivan whereupon he would have to address the possibility of another firearm being used in the commission of the crime. Obviously, this was not something Sullivan was willing to discuss."

High Hopes just repeats the assertions made by the ballistic expert which the defense was unable to impeach at trial. The ballistic expert testified that all 8 bullets were 35 caliber rifle rounds, that the fragments themselves establish all but Allison's bullet were fired by a Marlin 336C, that all 8 spent shell casings were recovered and all 8 were fired by Ron's marlin 336C and that this evidence in combination proves all 8 bullets were fired by Ron's rifle. Katzenbach suggests High Hopes presented soemthing different than the expert testified to at trial and concluded in his report but that is false. High Hopes ran with DellaPenna's assessment and accurately reported his assessmnet.

The claim item 33 had different markings is misleading. With the exception of the bullet that killed Allison and item 33 all bullets had their jacket all the way around the fragment so the entire profile of the barrel of the weapon that fired them could be obtained. The bullet that killed Allison had none of the jacket intact and item 33 only had a portion of the jacket. The portion that existed had marking from 8 lands and grooves. If the entire jacket were present there would have been markings from more lands and grooves thus more than 8. Katzenbach presents the misleading claim that item 33 was definitely fired by a gun with different characteristcs than Ron's rifle but that is wrong. The equivalent situation in a DNA test would be if one sample had a complete profile of all genetic markers but another sample had a partial profile thus was missing some markers. Suppose the complete profile matched a killer completely and the markers that existed from the partial profile matched. The missing markers might match or might not match. So it is possible the partial was also his but it is not 100 definite. That is the same thing with the stria on item 33 they could match Ron's but since some was missing we can't be sure just by looking at the stria you have to look at other evidence to figure out for certain.

We now have seen the rest of Katzenbach's supposed evidence and it proves the complete opposite of what he asserts. His claim gets a pants on fire rating.

The fragment weighs more than a complete 38 special bullet and no 38 specials in existence at the time of the murders had more than 6 lands and grooves yet by his own admission item 33 was fired by a gun possessing more than 8 lands and grooves. His claim these comport with 38 special characteristics are out and out false it is impossible to have been 38 special as he contends. However these characteristics do not rule out DellaPenna's assessment.

The 35 caliber rounds weighted 200 grains so 169 grains for apartial bullet is perfectly reaosnable indeed it is siilar to the weight of some other fragments matched to Ron's rifle. Ron's rifle had 12 lands and grooves so more than 8 and thus could have fired the wepaon. When you add the fact all 8 spent casings were fired by ROn's rifle it clinches things. Katzenbach ignores the fact 8 shell casings were recovered and that if his claims were true about a different gun of a different claiber being used then only 7 would have been recovered...
Yep he's hung up on the bullet that killed Allison and he's obviously wrong here but his claim (I thought) was that Louise was shot with a38 at least one of them?

Because of Sullivan's failure to go further into the ballistics, he opened the door for some of this stuff. Note that Ryan does bring up some of the issues I brought up and does a good job on certain points.

scipio-USMC
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:19 pm

kblur77 wrote:
Yep he's hung up on the bullet that killed Allison and he's obviously wrong here but his claim (I thought) was that Louise was shot with a38 at least one of them?

Because of Sullivan's failure to go further into the ballistics, he opened the door for some of this stuff. Note that Ryan does bring up some of the issues I brought up and does a good job on certain points.
He's hung up on one of the bullets that killed Louise. Item 33 hit Louise it is the bullet he keeps talking about.

What do you mean Sullivan's failure to go into ballistics? Saying that DEllaPenna assessed all the bullet came from Ron's weapon was accurate and opened the door to nothing.

All Ryan did was ignore the 8 shell casings and make up the bogus claim that Item 33 is consistent with being 38 caliber when it isn't. All 8 bullets were 35 caliber rifle rounds fired by Ron's Marlin 336C rifle.

The things Ryan brought up that you claim he did a good job is not a good job at all. The information he claims wasn't disclosed in fact was disclosed in High Hopes he just chooses to interpret it in his own way. You are obviously don't understand everything and thus are being fooled by him.

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:41 pm

You claimed he skirted the issue of going into a comprehensive ballistics discussion which might prove other weapons, something he himself admitted was a possibility. That is asserting they (pd and Sullivan) we're covering up as our friends suggest?

I was just repeating it here.

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:20 pm

kblur77 wrote:You claimed he skirted the issue of going into a comprehensive ballistics discussion which might prove other weapons, something he himself admitted was a possibility. That is asserting they (pd and Sullivan) we're covering up as our friends suggest?

I was just repeating it here.
What he does is make allegation and claims without actually providing any evidence to back up his claims.

Instead of producing a ballistic expert to declare the bullets are consistent with a different caliber and have such person explain why or to obtain a report of an expert that declares such and explans why he just advances the claims himself. He does that because there are no experts who could post any explanation that would support his :) silly dilly :) claims. There is no way for an expert to establish a 38 special bullet is bigger than a 35 caliber rifle round because it si an objectively false claim. There is no way for an expert to establish a bullet fired by a weapon having more than 8 lands and grooves coudl have been fired by a 38 special sicne they all had 5 or 6 lands and grooves. There is no way for an expert to explain how a fragment weighing more than a complete 38 special bullet coudl be a fragment from a 38 special bullet.

Ryan can't explain these things either so dooesn't discuss the facts. He doesn't discuss the weight of these projectiles when full. He doesn't discuss the number of lands and grooves various wepaons have. He just hopes that people will believe his claims though he offers no evidence to prove them.

Here was his speech on video in Shattered Hopes:

“We uncovered a document that is in the handwriting of Alfred DellaPenna, and it identifies 5 of the slugs removed from the DeFeo victims. Among them is item number 33. According to the document, Item 33, the second bullet taken from Louise DeFeo has 8 lands and grooves remaining. It also weighs 169 grains. It has a diameter of .363. This is in sharp contrast to the other bullet fragments removed from the DeFeo victims. The other bullets have 12 lands and grooves, are between .355 to .359 in diameter, and weigh between 137 grains and 170 grains,. So the interesting part of Item 33 - the second bullet removed from Louise DeFeo - is that even if it's just a fragment, even if that's only part of a bullet, that bullet at 169 grains still weighs almost as much as the heaviest fragment with 12 lands and grooves, that was removed from the other victims.

.363 in diameter - that is more consistent with a round that would have been fired by a 38 handgun. The way that the official report on item number 33 was written, is it's written to sound like the rifling doesn't quite match the rest of the bullets, but that this bullet is consistent with being fired from a 35 rifle, so hence they conclude that all 8 of the slugs came from the same gun. But what I don't believe has ever seen the light of day is-- I don't believe that this document with DellaPenna's handwritten notes has ever surfaced."

Does he offer any evidence that .363 is more consistent with a 38 special? No and the reaosn why he can't if challenged is because this claim is false. A 35 caliber round is slightly wider in diameter than a 38 special. Neither are .363 the diameter of .363 indicates it expanded.

As for his claims about the rifleing, the issue is exceedingly simple. Not all 360 degrees of the bullet jacket reained. There was a portion missing. The portion present reflected 8 lands and grooves. Because part was missing he wrote 8 lands and groove REMAINING. Without extraploating we don't know for sure how many lands ang grooves the wepaon had only that i had more than 8. This doesn't mean a different weapon fired it. The murder weapon had 12 lands and grooves so more than 8 and was the right caliber. His distortions fall apart unless someone knowns nothing about guns and just accepts his claims without question rather than do some research.


If you research you find out Shattered Hopes is just a load of bunk.

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Seen the first three parts once. Hard to go through all hours of it and research from memory but can talk about the murders show. He claims his finding are substantiated, so does Osuna, you can sell anything like the Lutzes did.

Dellapennas document has never surfaced? Elaborate on this, if you could?

If I tell you what gun I own could you tell me about the ammunition I have such as grooves and weight, etc?

I'll ask later.

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:20 pm

kblur77 wrote:Seen the first three parts once. Hard to go through all hours of it and research from memory but can talk about the murders show. He claims his finding are substantiated, so does Osuna, you can sell anything like the Lutzes did.

Dellapennas document has never surfaced? Elaborate on this, if you could?

If I tell you what gun I own could you tell me about the ammunition I have such as grooves and weight, etc?

I'll ask later.

There are different types of bullets not just brands. The caliber of gun determines what caliber of bullet can be fired by it. There are choices of many brands and different ammo types for each caliber. I can tell you the rifling characteristics of a weapon (though some manufacturers change the rifling so you need to know the date of manufacture as well to be sure) and give numerous choices of ammo to be used by it but would need to actually be able to inspect a bullet to assess the brand, caliber etc.

This is the ballistics report:

Image

Image

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:30 pm

Line by line breakdown of the ballistics report:


Item 16 was found on the shoulder area of Dawn’s gown.
This report says it was unburned gunpowder. Unburned gunpowder was propelled out of the barrel of the weapon landing on her shoulder.

Item 17 Lead core of bullet that killed Dawn, found in her bed

Items:
22 found in Louise’s side of the bed
23 found in Ron Sr’s side of the bed
33 found on the floor under Louise
37 Marc’s bed
38 John’s bed

Were all components of Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle ammunition

Items:
51 Dawn’s bed
87 inside Ron Sr’s body

Were all parts of the jacket of Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle ammunition

Item 70: removed from the floor of the Hick’s house was an expended bullet from a Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle round

The jackets and the bullet fragments that had jackets still attached were compared to the test bullets. All except Item 33 was matched to Ron’s rifle. Thanks to the notes Ryan makes such a big deal about we know that Item 33’s jacket was not complete and what was present had markings from 8 lands and grooves. Thus he could not say for sure it was fire by Ron’s rifle. It was not ruled out as being fired by Ron’s rifle and had to have been fired by a 35 rifle because it was determined to have been part of a 35 caliber Winchester Western Rifle round- only a gun chambered in 35 caliber could have fired it.

Items:
28 Allison
44 in Ron Sr.

were portions of the lead cores of jacketed bullets. Just from their size and shape alone it could not be ascertained what caliber or brand. HOWEVER, since the jacket that went to item 44 was from a 35 caliber Winchester Western Super X that would mean the core had to be as well. Though not in the report that is the conclusion DellaPenna had at trial.

Items 47, 48, 52, 55 and 71 were determined to be metal of unascertainable origin. In all likelihood they were bullet fragments but they were too small for any determination to be made I thus won’t bother to breakdown which victims each was found in.

Item 63 a complete 35 caliber rifle round that Ron accidentally left among the 22 ammunition and shotgun shells.

Item 75 was the 8 spent 35 Caliber Winchester Super X casings found in the sewer and they were determined to have been fired from the murder weapon.

Items:
76 2 rounds found in the sewer
82A 2 rounds found in the murder weapon
85A Full box of 20 rounds
were all Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle rounds

Item 83 was a rifle bag large enough to fit the murder weapon

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:32 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:Line by line breakdown of the ballistics report:


Item 16 was found on the shoulder area of Dawn’s gown.
This report says it was unburned gunpowder. Unburned gunpowder was propelled out of the barrel of the weapon landing on her shoulder.

Item 17 Lead core of bullet that killed Dawn, found in her bed

Items:
22 found in Louise’s side of the bed
23 found in Ron Sr’s side of the bed
33 found on the floor under Louise
37 Marc’s bed
38 John’s bed

Were all components of Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle ammunition

Items:
51 Dawn’s bed
87 inside Ron Sr’s body

Were all parts of the jacket of Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle ammunition

Item 70: removed from the floor of the Hick’s house was an expended bullet from a Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle round

The jackets and the bullet fragments that had jackets still attached were compared to the test bullets. All except Item 33 was matched to Ron’s rifle. Thanks to the notes Ryan makes such a big deal about we know that Item 33’s jacket was not complete and what was present had markings from 8 lands and grooves. Thus he could not say for sure it was fire by Ron’s rifle. It was not ruled out as being fired by Ron’s rifle and had to have been fired by a 35 rifle because it was determined to have been part of a 35 caliber Winchester Western Rifle round- only a gun chambered in 35 caliber could have fired it.

Items:
28 Allison
44 in Ron Sr.

were portions of the lead cores of jacketed bullets. Just from their size and shape alone it could not be ascertained what caliber or brand. HOWEVER, since the jacket that went to item 44 was from a 35 caliber Winchester Western Super X that would mean the core had to be as well. Though not in the report that is the conclusion DellaPenna had at trial.

Items 47, 48, 52, 55 and 71 were determined to be metal of unascertainable origin. In all likelihood they were bullet fragments but they were too small for any determination to be made I thus won’t bother to breakdown which victims each was found in.

Item 63 a complete 35 caliber rifle round that Ron accidentally left among the 22 ammunition and shotgun shells.

Item 75 was the 8 spent 35 Caliber Winchester Super X casings found in the sewer and they were determined to have been fired from the murder weapon.

Items:
76 2 rounds found in the sewer
82A 2 rounds found in the murder weapon
85A Full box of 20 rounds
were all Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle rounds

Item 83 was a rifle bag large enough to fit the murder weapon
Why the problem with item 33 that was questionable even though they knew that it had to come from the rifle?

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:36 pm

kblur77 wrote:Seen the first three parts once. Hard to go through all hours of it and research from memory but can talk about the murders show. He claims his finding are substantiated, so does Osuna, you can sell anything like the Lutzes did.

Dellapennas document has never surfaced? Elaborate on this, if you could?

If I tell you what gun I own could you tell me about the ammunition I have such as grooves and weight, etc?

I'll ask later.
I have a Ruger 22/45 Lite hand gun. Just for fun what would you say I have for ammo, have two different brands? Grooves seem to be different? Give a rundown on info for fun.

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:52 pm

kblur77 wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote:Line by line breakdown of the ballistics report:


Item 16 was found on the shoulder area of Dawn’s gown.
This report says it was unburned gunpowder. Unburned gunpowder was propelled out of the barrel of the weapon landing on her shoulder.

Item 17 Lead core of bullet that killed Dawn, found in her bed

Items:
22 found in Louise’s side of the bed
23 found in Ron Sr’s side of the bed
33 found on the floor under Louise
37 Marc’s bed
38 John’s bed

Were all components of Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle ammunition

Items:
51 Dawn’s bed
87 inside Ron Sr’s body

Were all parts of the jacket of Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle ammunition

Item 70: removed from the floor of the Hick’s house was an expended bullet from a Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle round

The jackets and the bullet fragments that had jackets still attached were compared to the test bullets. All except Item 33 was matched to Ron’s rifle. Thanks to the notes Ryan makes such a big deal about we know that Item 33’s jacket was not complete and what was present had markings from 8 lands and grooves. Thus he could not say for sure it was fire by Ron’s rifle. It was not ruled out as being fired by Ron’s rifle and had to have been fired by a 35 rifle because it was determined to have been part of a 35 caliber Winchester Western Rifle round- only a gun chambered in 35 caliber could have fired it.

Items:
28 Allison
44 in Ron Sr.

were portions of the lead cores of jacketed bullets. Just from their size and shape alone it could not be ascertained what caliber or brand. HOWEVER, since the jacket that went to item 44 was from a 35 caliber Winchester Western Super X that would mean the core had to be as well. Though not in the report that is the conclusion DellaPenna had at trial.

Items 47, 48, 52, 55 and 71 were determined to be metal of unascertainable origin. In all likelihood they were bullet fragments but they were too small for any determination to be made I thus won’t bother to breakdown which victims each was found in.

Item 63 a complete 35 caliber rifle round that Ron accidentally left among the 22 ammunition and shotgun shells.

Item 75 was the 8 spent 35 Caliber Winchester Super X casings found in the sewer and they were determined to have been fired from the murder weapon.

Items:
76 2 rounds found in the sewer
82A 2 rounds found in the murder weapon
85A Full box of 20 rounds
were all Winchester Super X 35 caliber rifle rounds

Item 83 was a rifle bag large enough to fit the murder weapon
Why the problem with item 33 that was questionable even though they knew that it had to come from the rifle?
There wasn't a problem. The report simply referenced the findings of the visual inspection. Note how the visual inspection of one of the bullets that killed Ron Sr didn't specify the core was from a 35 claiber bullet. Just fromt he observation alone it didn't warrant that visual finding. But when you add eveyrthing together liek that the jacket was from a 35 bullet that means the core had to be. That stuff is what DellaPenna testified to in court. He put everything together.

Just the visual inspection of item 33 revealed it was a 35 claiber bullet tso it had to be fired by a 35 caliber rifle. Just looking at it alone could nto tie it to Ron's rifle though just a 35 caliber rifle. However when you add the spent casing to the mix that proves it came from Ron's rifle not some other 35 claiber rifle. Hence why he testified item 33 definitely was fired by Ron's rifle.

Katzenbach is twisting to try to pretend there is a problem and his twisting ignores the finding that item 33 was part of a Winchester Super X 35 caliber bullet.

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:00 pm

Yeah that's how he tries to tie in the theory and with the added holster for the handgun provides all he needs to further the 38 magic bullet. Still cannot get around why Ron threw it in the sewer because it was not in the rifle bag.

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:22 pm

kblur77 wrote:I have a Ruger 22/45 Lite hand gun. Just for fun what would you say I have for ammo, have two different brands? Grooves seem to be different? Give a rundown on info for fun.
Well the 22 stands for 22LR which is the caliber. The reason for the 45 is because the grip is a Colt 1911 .45 APC style. That's actually my favorite handgun. I don't like the Beretta because is it too wide for my hand, I don't like double stacked SIGs either. The grip of the 1911 fits in my hand much better and the 1911 style looks much cooler than most plus the safety is the best. Anyway think of mating a high tech version of the gun Stalone and Banderas used in Assassins with the 45 grip, that's the 22/45.

The 22 has been a weapon of choice by some killers for a long time and since it comes threaded it is even easier for them to use a suppressor. Some have built in suppressors but when you can't remove it that can be a hassle not only for cleaning but worse the gun is a bigger pain to carry. It is pretty silent when using subsonic ammo and a suppressor.

The rifling is 6 lands and grooves with a 1:16 right twist which is the industry standard for 22LR. You will only find a different twist rate when you are firing specialized ammo with a heavier grain weight.

In a case from the UK that I discuss on a Forum, the killer used Eley 22LR subsonic. It is hard to pick a brand when there are so many and they are suited for different tasks plus it depends on if one wants to buy in bulk or pay more. Eley alone has so any different varieties. Lapua makes a ton as well. I don't like rimfire weapons but Remington Viper are decent rounds. I'm not a Fiocchi fan period.

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:37 pm

kblur77 wrote:Yeah that's how he tries to tie in the theory and with the added holster for the handgun provides all he needs to further the 38 magic bullet. Still cannot get around why Ron threw it in the sewer because it was not in the rifle bag.
It could have been before he tossed everything in the sewer. Plus as I said he could have used it to cover the barrel of the rifle initially hen after the rifle is tossed in the water he has no more use for the holster. Tossing the holster away for no apparent reason is the least of his problems. He wasn't thinking very well to come up with the stupid idea of leaving for work a little after 4AM when he didn't need to be there till 7:30-8. His claim he did it to miss traffic makes no sense since he coudl have left at 6AM or even 6:30 and would not have hit that much traffic. 7-9 is the worst time to travel.

If he did help Geraldine come up with some of the crap in Osuna's book then he is even dumber than this. Pretending he wasn't there and having Dawn and Augie drive the kids all the way to Brooklyn makes no sense. There were grandparent less than 10 minutes away why woudl they pick the grandparents in Brooklyn? For that matter why not go to the neighbors to call police or drive to a police station? In the meantime the kids would tell police Augie drove with them and worse yet the kids would tell police Ron had been there at the house. Worse still they woudl have told police he told them the parent were hurt so police were on the way and yet well over an hour passed between him saying he called for help and they left the house. The whole suggesiton that the kids were no trheat to him so they didn't need to die is absurd if those things had happened.

Given 10 years to think up lies he came up with absurd stuff of being married living in NJ, a ficitonal guy he was with and other crap including part of the above. If that is the best he can do when he puts his mind to it then why expect him to do anything that makes sense in the panic after the murders? I think he and Geraldine border on retard territory as far and their intellect goes and they think the rest of us are as dumb as them which we need ot be in order to buy their crap.

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:55 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:
kblur77 wrote:I have a Ruger 22/45 Lite hand gun. Just for fun what would you say I have for ammo, have two different brands? Grooves seem to be different? Give a rundown on info for fun.
Well the 22 stands for 22LR which is the caliber. The reason for the 45 is because the grip is a Colt 1911 .45 APC style. That's actually my favorite handgun. I don't like the Beretta because is it too wide for my hand, I don't like double stacked SIGs either. The grip of the 1911 fits in my hand much better and the 1911 style looks much cooler than most plus the safety is the best. Anyway think of mating a high tech version of the gun Stalone and Banderas used in Assassins with the 45 grip, that's the 22/45.

The 22 has been a weapon of choice by some killers for a long time and since it comes threaded it is even easier for them to use a suppressor. Some have built in suppressors but when you can't remove it that can be a hassle not only for cleaning but worse the gun is a bigger pain to carry. It is pretty silent when using subsonic ammo and a suppressor.

The rifling is 6 lands and grooves with a 1:16 right twist which is the industry standard for 22LR. You will only find a different twist rate when you are firing specialized ammo with a heavier grain weight.

In a case from the UK that I discuss on a Forum, the killer used Eley 22LR subsonic. It is hard to pick a brand when there are so many and they are suited for different tasks plus it depends on if one wants to buy in bulk or pay more. Eley alone has so any different varieties. Lapua makes a ton as well. I don't like rimfire weapons but Remington Viper are decent rounds. I'm not a Fiocchi fan period.
You mentioned one of the brands that I have here. When I fire mine it sounds like a loud pop gun but nowhere near as loud as the 380 handgun I used to have.

I paid 500 for it but bought it for looks. Cool looking barrel looks like mini machine gun.

Seems killers would not use a 22 and go for something more deadly I guess unless they are trying to muffle sound a bit?

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:06 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:
kblur77 wrote:Yeah that's how he tries to tie in the theory and with the added holster for the handgun provides all he needs to further the 38 magic bullet. Still cannot get around why Ron threw it in the sewer because it was not in the rifle bag.
It could have been before he tossed everything in the sewer. Plus as I said he could have used it to cover the barrel of the rifle initially hen after the rifle is tossed in the water he has no more use for the holster. Tossing the holster away for no apparent reason is the least of his problems. He wasn't thinking very well to come up with the stupid idea of leaving for work a little after 4AM when he didn't need to be there till 7:30-8. His claim he did it to miss traffic makes no sense since he coudl have left at 6AM or even 6:30 and would not have hit that much traffic. 7-9 is the worst time to travel.

If he did help Geraldine come up with some of the crap in Osuna's book then he is even dumber than this. Pretending he wasn't there and having Dawn and Augie drive the kids all the way to Brooklyn makes no sense. There were grandparent less than 10 minutes away why woudl they pick the grandparents in Brooklyn? For that matter why not go to the neighbors to call police or drive to a police station? In the meantime the kids would tell police Augie drove with them and worse yet the kids would tell police Ron had been there at the house. Worse still they woudl have told police he told them the parent were hurt so police were on the way and yet well over an hour passed between him saying he called for help and they left the house. The whole suggesiton that the kids were no trheat to him so they didn't need to die is absurd if those things had happened.

Given 10 years to think up lies he came up with absurd stuff of being married living in NJ, a ficitonal guy he was with and other crap including part of the above. If that is the best he can do when he puts his mind to it then why expect him to do anything that makes sense in the panic after the murders? I think he and Geraldine border on retard territory as far and their intellect goes and they think the rest of us are as dumb as them which we need ot be in order to buy their crap.
I guess the grandparents in Brooklyn crap goes with Geraldine and her tales of knowing grandpappy Brigante more believable? You're also talking about an idiot who tried to say that Allison did the murders too at one time! Gates involvement still is strange with how she got so far with this tale?

That pic of Ronnie and Gates with that other couple where he is in what appears to be a tank top & shorts? Where in the hell was that taken at? I wrote to him about 15 yrs ago but obviously never got a response. I still wonder if he did get my letter?

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:06 pm

kblur77 wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote:
kblur77 wrote:I have a Ruger 22/45 Lite hand gun. Just for fun what would you say I have for ammo, have two different brands? Grooves seem to be different? Give a rundown on info for fun.
Well the 22 stands for 22LR which is the caliber. The reason for the 45 is because the grip is a Colt 1911 .45 APC style. That's actually my favorite handgun. I don't like the Beretta because is it too wide for my hand, I don't like double stacked SIGs either. The grip of the 1911 fits in my hand much better and the 1911 style looks much cooler than most plus the safety is the best. Anyway think of mating a high tech version of the gun Stalone and Banderas used in Assassins with the 45 grip, that's the 22/45.

The 22 has been a weapon of choice by some killers for a long time and since it comes threaded it is even easier for them to use a suppressor. Some have built in suppressors but when you can't remove it that can be a hassle not only for cleaning but worse the gun is a bigger pain to carry. It is pretty silent when using subsonic ammo and a suppressor.

The rifling is 6 lands and grooves with a 1:16 right twist which is the industry standard for 22LR. You will only find a different twist rate when you are firing specialized ammo with a heavier grain weight.

In a case from the UK that I discuss on a Forum, the killer used Eley 22LR subsonic. It is hard to pick a brand when there are so many and they are suited for different tasks plus it depends on if one wants to buy in bulk or pay more. Eley alone has so any different varieties. Lapua makes a ton as well. I don't like rimfire weapons but Remington Viper are decent rounds. I'm not a Fiocchi fan period.
You mentioned one of the brands that I have here. When I fire mine it sounds like a loud pop gun but nowhere near as loud as the 380 handgun I used to have.

I paid 500 for it but bought it for looks. Cool looking barrel looks like mini machine gun.

Seems killers would not use a 22 and go for something more deadly I guess unless they are trying to muffle sound a bit?

22s are the easiest to silence, they are less expensive and the bullet is great if you shoot int he right place. You want to hit in the head to make sure you kill. The biggest problem of a killer is someone seeing the or chasing them so stealth is of he highest importance.

I have a Beretta 1935 .380 and Colt Mustang. I like the PPK but never got one yet. I love anything with 1911 stying hence the Mustang. I have a Detonics Combat Master as well. Though it is a 45 it still handles as nicely as the Mustang. I like it neary as much as the full size 1911.

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:08 pm

kblur77 wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote:
kblur77 wrote:Yeah that's how he tries to tie in the theory and with the added holster for the handgun provides all he needs to further the 38 magic bullet. Still cannot get around why Ron threw it in the sewer because it was not in the rifle bag.
It could have been before he tossed everything in the sewer. Plus as I said he could have used it to cover the barrel of the rifle initially hen after the rifle is tossed in the water he has no more use for the holster. Tossing the holster away for no apparent reason is the least of his problems. He wasn't thinking very well to come up with the stupid idea of leaving for work a little after 4AM when he didn't need to be there till 7:30-8. His claim he did it to miss traffic makes no sense since he coudl have left at 6AM or even 6:30 and would not have hit that much traffic. 7-9 is the worst time to travel.

If he did help Geraldine come up with some of the crap in Osuna's book then he is even dumber than this. Pretending he wasn't there and having Dawn and Augie drive the kids all the way to Brooklyn makes no sense. There were grandparent less than 10 minutes away why woudl they pick the grandparents in Brooklyn? For that matter why not go to the neighbors to call police or drive to a police station? In the meantime the kids would tell police Augie drove with them and worse yet the kids would tell police Ron had been there at the house. Worse still they woudl have told police he told them the parent were hurt so police were on the way and yet well over an hour passed between him saying he called for help and they left the house. The whole suggesiton that the kids were no trheat to him so they didn't need to die is absurd if those things had happened.

Given 10 years to think up lies he came up with absurd stuff of being married living in NJ, a ficitonal guy he was with and other crap including part of the above. If that is the best he can do when he puts his mind to it then why expect him to do anything that makes sense in the panic after the murders? I think he and Geraldine border on retard territory as far and their intellect goes and they think the rest of us are as dumb as them which we need ot be in order to buy their crap.
I guess the grandparents in Brooklyn crap goes with Geraldine and her tales of knowing grandpappy Brigante more believable? You're also talking about an idiot who tried to say that Allison did the murders too at one time! Gates involvement still is strange with how she got so far with this tale?

That pic of Ronnie and Gates with that other couple where he is in what appears to be a tank top & shorts? Where in the hell was that taken at? I wrote to him about 15 yrs ago but obviously never got a response. I still wonder if he did get my letter?
Gates had no traction at all till Osuna decided to advance her BS. Since then others have jumpe on the bandwagon of citing her without bothering to detail the obvious shortcomings in her claims.

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kblur77
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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by kblur77 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:57 pm

The 22 rifle I had made little noise at all, as you know. Used to shoot clay pigeons out in the country at my brothers and shot with his 410. Was a pretty good shot too. My 380 was a Bersa. A guy I work with is heavy gun buff and likes 9 millimeters.

I have about 100 rounds of hollow points that are copper while the others have the grey head on them that you can scratch with your fingers and leave marks? Thought about getting a conceal permit but pointless because my 22 is a bit big to conceal anyway.

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Re: Factchecking Ryan Katzenbach's bullet claims on his webs

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:53 pm

kblur77 wrote:The 22 rifle I had made little noise at all, as you know. Used to shoot clay pigeons out in the country at my brothers and shot with his 410. Was a pretty good shot too. My 380 was a Bersa. A guy I work with is heavy gun buff and likes 9 millimeters.

I have about 100 rounds of hollow points that are copper while the others have the grey head on them that you can scratch with your fingers and leave marks? Thought about getting a conceal permit but pointless because my 22 is a bit big to conceal anyway.
The gray is lead, it has no jacket is it just cast lead. That is what is inside jacketed bullets. With cast lead bullets the lead directly touches the lands and grooves because nothing is coating the lead.

My service pistol was a 1911 chambered in 9mm because all NATO countries use 9mm . I actually liked it a little better than the action of my 45 1911 but it's nearly impossible to find any modified 9mm magazines that can fit in a 1911 so no point in having a 9mm barrel installed. The Marine Corps modified the 1911s themselves and people like me with smaller hands preferred them to the M9. Ironically I have multiple 45s but no 9mms: M1911A1, H&K USP Compact, Detonic Combatmaster, S&W 645 and Sig P220. I have been meaning to get a sig P225 9mm but have not gotten around to it. I also want a Detonics Combatmaster chambered in 9mm but am holding out for one in really good shape with extra mags but still for a good price. They didn't make many in 9mm instead they made a different 9mm model that looks like a 380 rather than 1911 styling. The Combatmaster has really strong internals so handles 9mm rounds like nothing. That would be a gun I would want if I were to carry one around. Don Johnson's Miami Vice ankle gun was the Detonics- mine is black though not nickel. Because of my love for Bond I still probably will get a PPK one day. I only have 1 rifle, it is basically an accurized M16 in .308. The SR-25 it is a Match version with 20 inch barrel. I'm an ok shot with a pistol but can group shots really well with my rifle. I don't really shoot my pistols I just have them as colelctibles mainly my rifle I actualyl take to the range.

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