Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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scipio-USMC
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Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:34 pm

On the same exact website page where Katzenbach argues Item 33 was not a 35 caliber bullet but rather a 38 special bullet he stated the following:

"One reason that Shattered producers are doubtful of this conclusion lies in a statement made by Det. Gerard Gozaloff in an interview with Shattered. Gozaloff, providing many details about how the crime scene was processed, specifically with regards to the spent bullets from the victims...see the clip below....



With this, even before ballistics Det/Sgt. Alfred DellaPenna had had a chance to examine the bullets or make a microscopic analysis of the striae, a conclusion as to the caliber had been reached visually.

Why is this important? Because it means that the detectives KNEW within a few hours of arrival at the scene as to the type of weapon they were dealing with. This is very significant when paired to documentation that is revealed in Shattered that calls Shirvell's veracity into question with regards to the discovery the boxes."

Ryan is making a big deal about how in this video Gozaloff asserts DellaPenna identified a bullet found under the boxspring as being 35 claiber and thus police knew fromt he outset the murder weapon was 35 caliber. Guess which bullet he is referring to- item 33! Taht is the bullet that was found under the boxspring.

So in one breath Katzenbach says item 33 was identified at the scene as being 35 caliber and thus police knew right away they were looking for a 35 caliber murder weapon and in the next breath he says item 33 was a 38 caliber bullet not 35 caiber and that police later chose to identify it as 35 caliber simply to make these nice and easy.

I raised this with Katzenbach in a debate we had on his facebook page.

Scipio:

"It appears you simply are willing to claim item 33 is consistent with anything you find or want it to be. That is why you need to be posting evidence and explain what exactly about item 33 is consistent with such round. But being inconsistent is a habit with you. You go to great lengths to use Gozaloff’s statement that on the scene they determine the bullet under the parent’s bed to be a 35 round and this established they knew the caliber of the weapon early on. Item 33 is the bullet found under the bed thus Gozaloff provided added verification it was a 35. This means the cops on the scene who saw item 33 accepted it was a 35 and didn’t question it. But you insiste item 33 is not a 35 so oh what irony that the very round you rely on for them identifying early on that a 35 was used is the round you say wasn’t a 35 at all. Did you realize item 33 was the round he was referencing or do you not know the evidence half as good as you think you do?"

This was Ryan's response:

"My research, and I do MEAN ALL OF MY research is SUBSTANTIATED. You're throwing rhetoric out there to muddy waters --- Gozaloff picked up the spent bullet? Do tell me where it says Gozaloff picked up the shell and said it was a .35? Do tell me where anyone SPECIFICALLY said it was a shell recovered from Louise DeFeo that was picked up and the caliber was called. Please provide that to me."

I ddin't assert that Gozaloff assessed the caliber of a bullet I referred to the tale he stressed on hsi website that was sourced to Gozaloff. He created a strawman to ignore dealing with the point which was his contradciton of on one hand saying they knew the caliber because item 33 was determiend on the scene to be 35 claibe rnad his claim it wasn't 35 claiber and that the lab just claimed it was so it would match the caliber of the other bullets for anice easy case.

The man is too stupid to be able to debate effectively so just reports to lies to avoid delaing with his contradicotry claims.

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kblur77
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by kblur77 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:32 pm

Yes the detectives knew the weapon they were dealing with early on. Ryan does contradict his claims here.

How far did your debate continue with him on this?

scipio-USMC
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:29 pm

kblur77 wrote:Yes the detectives knew the weapon they were dealing with early on. Ryan does contradict his claims here.

How far did your debate continue with him on this?
The quotes I posted are it for this aspect. He posted that pathetic response then banned me. As apracticla matter Gozaloff was wrong though. DellaPenna gave an interview for a book and in that interview he said that at the scene he SUSPECTED the bullets were 35 caliber upon looking at them but that he took them back to the lab and measured them before he told anyone about his suspcions. This subsequently got changed to the ambiguous DellaPenna identifying it at the scene. I say ambiguous because identifying it at the scene can me telling others or not telling others. Gozaloff ran with the he identifed it to police at the scene though DellPenna denies it. Of course Ryan decided to run with Gozaloff's eroneous claim so he could claim police knew right away.

That decision though set up the contradiction of running with Gozaloff's claim that DellaPenna identified item 33 as being 35 claiber at the scene so police knew right away and yet claiming item 33 was a 38 caliber bullet that was later identified as 35 caliber just to make the prosecution case more smooth. So running with Gozaloff's erroenous claim actually hurts his conspiracy nonsense. I'm the onyl one who has written about this, the only one to openly challenge him on it and his response was simply the above and shortly thereafter he banned me so I was unable to post the link etc like I did here to throw it in his face even more.

He reads this site though he comments on what we write so he sees my posts and won't respond because he can't without getting further humiliated.

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by sherbetbizarre » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:23 am

And now we've reached the point where Ryan admits Ronnie acted alone.

So he'll have to come up with a story as to why Ronnie was armed with two weapons...

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kblur77
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:35 am

scipio-USMC wrote:
kblur77 wrote:Yes the detectives knew the weapon they were dealing with early on. Ryan does contradict his claims here.

How far did your debate continue with him on this?
The quotes I posted are it for this aspect. He posted that pathetic response then banned me. As apracticla matter Gozaloff was wrong though. DellaPenna gave an interview for a book and in that interview he said that at the scene he SUSPECTED the bullets were 35 caliber upon looking at them but that he took them back to the lab and measured them before he told anyone about his suspcions. This subsequently got changed to the ambiguous DellaPenna identifying it at the scene. I say ambiguous because identifying it at the scene can me telling others or not telling others. Gozaloff ran with the he identifed it to police at the scene though DellPenna denies it. Of course Ryan decided to run with Gozaloff's eroneous claim so he could claim police knew right away.

That decision though set up the contradiction of running with Gozaloff's claim that DellaPenna identified item 33 as being 35 claiber at the scene so police knew right away and yet claiming item 33 was a 38 caliber bullet that was later identified as 35 caliber just to make the prosecution case more smooth. So running with Gozaloff's erroenous claim actually hurts his conspiracy nonsense. I'm the onyl one who has written about this, the only one to openly challenge him on it and his response was simply the above and shortly thereafter he banned me so I was unable to post the link etc like I did here to throw it in his face even more.

He reads this site though he comments on what we write so he sees my posts and won't respond because he can't without getting further humiliated.
Interesting. Also, I watched that Meltzer show again last night and he did try to insinuate a bit but ended up speculating about the "missing" gun.

That gun they showed on there was not even the weapon Ronnie used was it?

scipio-USMC
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:38 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:And now we've reached the point where Ryan admits Ronnie acted alone.

So he'll have to come up with a story as to why Ronnie was armed with two weapons...
He already came up with that story. He says that Ron decided to wear his holster in case he needed another gun.

Even if he had a handgun in a holster that still doesn't mean he would need to use it. What he has failed to do is to come up with a reason why Ron would use another gun. He would only need to use it if he ran out of ammo and didn't have time to reload his rifle.

If he shot each parent 1 time then Ron Sr got up to confromt his so he shot Sr again the gun is not empty it would still have 4 bullets left. So he would not need to shoot Louise the second time with a different gun. There is no reaosn why he would switch to a different gun at that point.

As a practical matter, if his father had gotten up and confronted him in the hall and Ron shot him there- this would have created additional time and noise that would likely make the kids get up. So the whole wild made up fable actually makes it less likely everyone would be killed in bed. Both shots to his mother were in the back not a shot in the back and then another in her front. They were fired close enough together that both caused hemmoraging. Item 22 caused damage in Louise's chest, exited, went through her wrist and was found in the bed under her body. Item 33 had a more straight trajectory and went through her body causing hemmoraging, exited, entered the mattress, exited and ended up on the floor under the boxspring. If item 33 had been fired a signficiant time after item 22 then Louise would already have been dead and no hemmoraging would have resulted. Had item 33 been a 38 caliber round it would not have exited and gone to the floor. 35 rifle rounds are high velocity rounds and that is why many of them exited. Katzenbach ignores every significant issue because they demolish the fairytale he is peddling.

The fairytale he made up can only have two possibilities:

1) Ron decided to shoot his mother with another gun despite the rifle still having ammo or
2) Ron emptied the gun by firing 2 shots into his father and 1 into eveyrone else, then decided to shoot his mother again in the back though she was already dead and since the rifle was empty he did it with another gun, then for some reason he subsequently decided to load 3 rounds into the rifle and even chambered a round but never used it again.

Neither makes any sense and as I pointed out had the second shot been significantly later it would not have caused any hemmoraging because Louise would have been dead so the medical evidence refutes the nonsense. Nor would a 38 special have exited her body to the floor. In The Night The Defeo's Died Osuna misrepresented that item 33 was found inside Louise. Katzenbach never bothers to correct this error.

Which brings us back to the subject of this thread. He ignores that item 33 is the bullet found under the boxspring which Gozaloff asserted was identified on the scene as a 35 caliber bullet which in turn Katzenbach says is proof police knew right away what caliber the murder weapon was. This undermines his claim item 33 was a 38 caliber round and completely demolishes the yarn he spun about how the lab later decided to pretend item 33 was the same caliber as the other bullets to make the case smoother. When I pointed this out to him he refused to respond substantively becaus ehe knew he was busted. So to divert attention he pretended I said Gozaloff determined the caliber at the scene. I was banned soon after so could not press the fight to him further.

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kblur77
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:41 am

Meltzer said in that show that the holster fits perfect for the 38?

scipio-USMC
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:12 am

kblur77 wrote:Meltzer said in that show that the holster fits perfect for the 38?
The holster appears to be able to fit a 38 snubnose, though how well would only be able to be determined by actually testing it and there are different frame sizes of revolvers. Some have a smaller frame thus smaller cylinder and thus hold less rounds. It is too small for a handgun with a long barrel. A snubnose is generally only a 2 inch barrel though can be as many as 3. Somehting to note is that if a revovler sat in the holseter for a length of time it would have marks from the cylinder but we don't see the indentaitons the cylinder woudl cause so no way was a remover stored in it for any length of time.

Image

Note how you can see the outline of the cylinder. A line is formed under the cylinder. When you remove the gun you still see that line running horizontally across the holster. Such a line is not visible on the holster found in the sewer.

Ryan is looking at the issue ass backwards though. You look exclusively to the casing, bullet fragment and the nature of the wounds to assess the caliber. Looking at Kelske's statement that Defeo was known to have a snubnose or that the holster might fit a snubnose can't demonstrate one was used.

The characteristics of the bullets, the casings and the wounds make clear the murder weapon was a 35 rifle. No other weapon was used. A 8 special bullet would have stayed inside Louise it would not have exited and reahc the floor. It would have been smaller than item 33 was and there would not have been 8 spent 35 casings. If he had used a snubnose as well not only would the wounds and evidence be different, he would have had extra unused 38 ammo that would have been tossed in the sewer with the unused 35 ammunition and spent casing. He wound have tossed the gun in the water in the same location he tossed the rifle. Jus tliek he didn't disasseble the rifle he woudl nto have disassembled it. He would have told police about it as well because after he already told them about the rifle used to fire 7 shots there would be nothing to gian in not giving up the gun used to fire the last shot.

The totality of all the evidenc emakes clear the entire fable is just that a fable. The Marlin 336C was used to fire all 8 rounds that killed the victims.

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kblur77
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:30 pm

This one appears a bit smaller than defeos? If no other gun then why the disposal of it with the 35 items? Yet Ron has changed his story at times and one of them was his mother had the 38 , etc.

Blood on the shoes photo? Defeos or not?

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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:58 pm

kblur77 wrote:This one appears a bit smaller than defeos? If no other gun then why the disposal of it with the 35 items? Yet Ron has changed his story at times and one of them was his mother had the 38 , etc.

Blood on the shoes photo? Defeos or not?
Yeah more than a decade later he publicly claimed his mother killed everyone else (except Ron Sr) and held a 38 revolver to her throat. That was his first mention of a revolver. Teh same story with htis nonsense contained his lies about being married to Geraldine and being with a fictional character at the time of the murders so none of it is credible. He drastically changed his story to still feature this fictional character but dropped his mother killing the kids because it was publicly ridiculed as not credible. Instead he blamed Dawn for killing everyone and said he merely killed Dawn. Both claims were clearly completely made up.

Maybe he thought he got blood on the holster, maybe the holster was simply in the rifle bag which he decided to throw away, maybe he stuck the holster over the barrel of the rifle before he stuck it in the pillowcase so it would not tear though the pillowcase. He didn't want anyone to see him walking around with the rifle case so he folded it up and stuck it in a pillowcase and covered the rifle with pillowcases as well. There are many possibilities of why only Ron knows which possibility is the correct one. For sure there was no other gun used to shoot anyone let alone a hand gun so the reason wasn't to conceal a handgun he owned was used. It's rather obvious he didn't own a handgun at the time of the murders because if he had then he would have had ammunition for that weapon.

I wonder whether he ever owned any handguns or the guns his friends saw him with were pellet guns. To someone who knows nothing about guns, blank guns, pellet guns and BB guns look real. Some look real enough to fool me unless I get a really close look. Some even load the BBS, or blanks in shells. He clearly didin't buy any handguns from any legal source. None of them knew too much about guns because apparaently they though a silencer would work on a revolver.

The bloody shoe photo was from a different crime scene. Osuna is such an assclown he asserted there was an extra victim because of photos that were from a different scene that were mixed in with the Aitville photos even though you coudl tell the photos didn't match any rooms in the house and had there been another victim it would have been publicized.

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kblur77
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by kblur77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:15 pm

Yeah I know that Osunas extra body was from other crime scene. It's been said that Ron fired his gun or guns out of his window at times. Wonder if any truth here on that? Maybe kelske had a 38, maybe borrowed?

You don't think that big Ron or Louise had a gun?

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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:33 pm

kblur77 wrote:Yeah I know that Osunas extra body was from other crime scene. It's been said that Ron fired his gun or guns out of his window at times. Wonder if any truth here on that? Maybe kelske had a 38, maybe borrowed?

You don't think that big Ron or Louise had a gun?
They didn't purchase any guns legally or there would have been records. They didn't have any ammunition for any guns either which is a major indication of whether a gun is owned. The only people who don't have any ammo for their guns are collectors who have no intention of those guns ever being fired. If they did own guns they would not have needed any BB guns or pellet guns.

The friends who testified about him firing guns in the air did so to help support his claims of being crazy so chances are they made it up. One gun he supposedly fired was an automatic pistol. He didn't have such a gun at the time of his arrest though. If he did have such a gun he got rid of it before his arrest and got rid of any ammo related to it. I think he carried aorund BB guns or pellet guns and his stupid friends believed he was packing real heat. I know someone who wanted to act tough so used to carry a replica Colt 45 pistol around until the people at a Taco Bell drive through window called police because they saw it in his pants and it was taken away from him because he drilled out the barrel plug. Since they lied for him and didn't know much about guns it is hard to know whether they were right or not. The best measure though of what guns were currently owned is the ammo supply.

The only ammo in the house was for the .22 Marlin rifle and shotgun. They were also the only real firearms in the house. The only ammo in the sewer was unfired 35 claiber rifle rounds. It all adds up to the only guns owed at the time of the murderss being the 35 caliber marlin, 22 caliber Marlin and shotgun. There were BBs and pellets for the airguns but they are not technically firearms.

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Rokiisun
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Re: Katzenbach's contradictory claims about Item 33

Post by Rokiisun » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:07 pm

I would have thought he used the holister to collect the spent magazines or even to carry the bullets because he would have needed two hands to use the rifle.
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