Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
vance
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by vance » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:29 am

Wow msmart112, Your amazing. And this is the first I've seen mention of the rape that I remembered as a kid. None of the other articles covered it. I think the sexual assault will put to rest the mother committing this and framing Vito. Thank You.

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by sherbetbizarre » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:38 pm

Hey, Vance,
vance wrote:Coscia22, I have info your uncle may not have known when he made up his story. Karen wasn’t home until after midnight. She was out with my church group roller skating, not lying home dead waiting for her mom to find someone to blame it on. The police don’t even know that.
How come the police never learned this information?

vance
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by vance » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:51 pm

I don't really know that they didn't. But as far as I know no one questioned my mother at the time. I know none of the news articles talk about it. My point was Vito's story as told by Coscia was the girls dragged him back to the house to be the scapegoat in the death but A. Karen wasn't home and B. Anthony survived the attack so he got help quickly. Vito pleaded guilty but later said the cops beat it out of him. That was the same thing DeFeo claimed as well.

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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by BooshaGirl » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:52 am

*mind explodes* Wow, Vance--thanks for sharing this story. I was on the edge of my seat reading this. I certainly do hope Anthony (the little brother?) gets in touch with you. Who was the 3rd child? I'm kind of lost on that one. Again, thanks for sharing. I'm sure Cosica22 believes his uncle was innocent--nobody wants to believe their family member committed such a heinous crime--but your (sad) story makes sense. I am also sorry you had to carry this buried within all these years. My dad died when I was 6--and we never really talked about it at home (for fear of upsetting mom/her fear of upsetting us)...and now we know that was so very wrong. Glad you're able to talk about/remember it with us.

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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by dalnkel » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:49 am

vance i am amazed by this and thank you for sharing it with us. i found this on facebook not sure if it is the right anthony

http://www.facebook.com/antd101 seeing in the last post on here someone put it would be nice if he got in touch hopefully this is him and you can chat to him about things and remember happy mermories karen together x

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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Miz Kizzle » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:52 pm

It looks like the house where Karen DeGennaro was killed is no longer standing. An empty lot at that address was listed as being up for sale.
It was a terrible tragedy for such a young girl to be brutally murdered. One thing I wonder is why, if the "seventh body" photo is indeed Karen and not one of the DeFeo girls (unlikely) or someone else entirely, does the victim appear to have been shot in the head? Wasn't Karen DeGennaro stabbed in the chest?
Of course the head injury of the person in the photo could have been the result of being bludgeoned with a heavy object, but not to get into gruesome detail, it looks more like a gunshot wound.

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Dan the Damned » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:41 pm

Miz Kizzle wrote:why ... does the victim appear to have been shot in the head?
Well, yeah -- there is a lot of blood on the face (please do not post the photo here, though -- we don't like displaying the graphic photos on this site out of respect). And her right eye is in shadow (possibly blood or a bullet hole?) with blood smears between the mouth and nose. Also some blood marks between her left cheek and ear (which might be blood coming from her ear).

I can understand someone looking at the photo and thinking she was shot, but I think these same things could be explained in other ways. Maybe she was lying face-down in bed for a long period after her death. Maybe some of those things are miscellaneous wounds that took place during her death (with the main wound being in her stomach, or wherever they said it was)...

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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by FoxyJ » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:07 pm

IMHO being stabbed several times in the chest with a kitchen knife would cause a lot of blood spatter; blood consistent with that shown in the (graphic) image would certainly have been (with)drawn with each stabbing action. *shudders*

Any murder is horrendous but there's something deeply disturbing about stabbing; so very personal - poor child.
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Shawn
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Shawn » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:18 pm

also, we have no idea if she was beaten as well. The murder was quite violent, I imagine, and like Foxy said there was probably a lot of blood everywhere. If you go to the link where Osuna has it(picture), right click and save it. Then enlarge it. That's not one of the DeFeo girls. And like Maxwell pointed out before, the two murders were within a week of each other and the names were very similar (DeFeo~DeGennaro). That means the pictures could of been mixed up. People make mistakes and the names alone could of been the reason.
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Dan the Damned
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:11 pm

It's one of those things that probably could be put to rest very easily. Just print out Osuna's photo and take it to the scpd (probably getting advanced permission/appointment/etc) and see if the crime scene matches the police photos of the DeGennaro case.

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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:52 am


vance
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by vance » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:09 am

The shoes are not but the article confirms the 7th body is.

Thank You for the link.

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Dan the Damned » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:05 am

Okay, so Ryan finally agrees with us that the "bloody shoes" photo is not from the DeFeo case. No definitive proof yet, but hard to dismiss the very strong evidence against this photo.

Just looking at Ric Osuna's page for the "bloody shoe" photo:
The photo of the bloody shoes is just one piece of evidence that supports the fact that the DeFeos were not asleep at the time of their murders. It also lends credence to retired New York City police detective Herman Race, who was the expert criminologist hired for the DeFeo defense. Mr. Race told the presiding judge that not all of the DeFeos were shot in their beds. Mr. Race arrived at this conclusion because of bloodstains on the floors of the house (See The Injustice that Followed for more information).
Let's get that last line out of the way first: "because of bloodstains on the floors of the house." Here is what Mr Race actually said in court:
The basis of that is I do find that there is one and possibly two were shot in another room and put into bed. I might add Mr Weber has shown me quite a number of photographs. But I don't recall seeing any photographs of the floors of the other room, which I believe were blood-stained.
"Which I believe were blood-stained." And where is the proof of this? This was merely a theory presented by Race, not a fact (as Osuna presents it).

But the main point here is that the bloody shoes photo was thought by Osuna to be important evidence that the DeFeos were not all shot in their beds (despite the devastating evidence of the bullet holes lining up with sheets, mattresses and pillows, along with shell fragments being found lodged in mattresses, etc). So now that this photo is debunked, what other evidence do we have that some of the DeFeos were shot out of bed?

And why would Osuna so readily believe that the bloody shoes photo belonged to the DeFeo case? Take a look at the proof sheet (a contact sheet showing the order of the negatives) that is displayed on Ryan's site (link). About halfway down the page you'll see it -- a series of tiny thumbnail photos in a row. This is how the photos were on the strips of film negatives.

The first image is of a tiny house (definitely not the DeFeo house). The next image is of the bloody shoes. The next four images are of a rifle that is obviously not the same one as used by Ronnie DeFeo. Then there are 2 blank frames, and the DeFeo photos seem to begin after that.

So the bloody shoe photo was surrounded by other pictures that were obviously from a different crime scene. Why would Osuna ignore that and claim this one photo as being authentic?!?

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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Jacobmarley1 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:14 am

Dan the Damned wrote: The first image is of a tiny house (definitely not the DeFeo house). The next image is of the bloody shoes. The next four images are of a rifle that is obviously not the same one as used by Ronnie DeFeo. Then there are 2 blank frames, and the DeFeo photos seem to begin after that.

So the bloody shoe photo was surrounded by other pictures that were obviously from a different crime scene. Why would Osuna ignore that and claim this one photo as being authentic?!?
Why, because Osuna wanted attention, and he sure got it. He may be debunked or considered a fool, but he's still made a name for himself with the case, and that's really all he wanted. He must have known he had no real evidence to back up his claims, but that didn't matter. What mattered was getting his foot in the door, and the only way to do so was to stir up the pot.

vance
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by vance » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:12 pm

Just a question. Why can't the bloody shoe be from Karen's house? Don't the odd pictures match that scene? Remember, her little brother Anthony who was seven was stabbed in the stomach and survived. I'm not saying the shoes were his but if he moved around or when he was taken to the hospital blood would have gotten around.

It may be the photo's are just from the two crime scenes. No?

Vance

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Dan the Damned » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:50 am

Dunno. Check out Ryan's page and take a look at the contact sheet he displays. Right next to the bloody shoe pic is a pic of a small house. Is that Karen's house?

I haven't seen other pics from Karen's case, so I don't know if the carpeting matches or any of that. But it was evident this was never from the DeFeo case from the very start. Not with that disgustingly dirty carpet. That just didn't match the DeFeo pics, and it's shocking that Osuna attempted to pass them off as such.

I forget -- were the bloody shoes in the first edition of his book? Did he include this photo (and the 7th body photo) only in later editions? Perhaps as an attempt to get some controversy going which might increase sales?

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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:48 am

The 7th Body & Bloody Shoes were found at the same time, and are mentioned at the end of the first book.

The pics themselves appeared in the 2nd edition - ironically edited by Katzenbach himself.

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Dan the Damned » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:53 am

Ah, okay. Thanks for that. The truth has set me free. ;)

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msmart112
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by msmart112 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:36 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:I forget -- were the bloody shoes in the first edition of his book? Did he include this photo (and the 7th body photo) only in later editions? Perhaps as an attempt to get some controversy going which might increase sales?
He mentioned both in his first (Xlibris) edition...but only included a picture of the shoes. He theorized that the shoes got bloody from Ronnie and Bobby cleaning up.

He only made a mention of the seventh body near the end...

After careful analysis, I came to the conclusion that the body in this photo was most likely that of Dawn DeFeo.

According to friends and relatives of the DeFeos, the family had a spare bed in the basement.And, indeed, the surrounding in the photograph appeared to resemble the wood paneling of the DeFeo basement. Moreover, the bed in the photograph did not resemble any of the beds located in the bedrooms.

But I have to question why the police would go to the trouble of placing a body in another bed. Did they feel that Dawn’s bloody mattress was indication of a struggle for the gun? Were they trying to hide the powder burns on her gown? Could this be considered tampering with evidence?


...soon after...Ric was asked why he didn’t include the photo in his book. He replied that he was pressed for time...and that he was limited as to the number of pictures he could include (I guess the picture of him was more important than this earth-shattering discovery).

Several months later...when the second edition (Katco) came out...the seventh body had become arguably the most important thing in the book!

The photo took up an entire (8.5 x 11) page...followed by a fifteen-paragraph section discussing the photo.

And...he even chose to end his book with a reference to the seventh body...

Still, if Geraldine’s testimony was disregarded, then what is left? There is still the matter of Bobby Kelske’s being implicated in the murders; the second gun and different caliber bullet found in Louise DeFeo; the DeFeos’ bodies being moved and the bloodstained floors; the undeniable Mob elements associated with this story; the Lutzes conspiring with William Weber to write a fictional ghost story; a judge who was one of the most corrupt in American history; and a seventh body.

...the third edition (Noble Kai) also contained the photo...as well as the same ridiculous final paragrapgh.
Image

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:07 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:Dunno. Check out Ryan's page and take a look at the contact sheet he displays. Right next to the bloody shoe pic is a pic of a small house. Is that Karen's house?
No - Karen's house is bigger and appears among the crime scene pics -

http://www.amityvillefilm.com/The%20Seventh%20Body.html

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Possible origin of the “bloody shoes” photo?

Post by Dan the Damned » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:32 pm

In his book The Night the DeFeos Died, Ric Osuna wrote:Still, if Geraldine’s testimony was disregarded, then what is left? There is still the matter of...
Cool! So if we show all these points are BS, then Ric admits his book is pointless? Hey Ho! Let's go!

Still, if Geraldine’s testimony was disregarded, then what is left? There is still the matter of Bobby Kelske’s being implicated in the murders...
Bobby was never officially implicated. He was questioned, just as most all of Ronnie's friends and family were. The only ones implicating him were Ronnie (at one point) and Geraldine (whose testimony is being disregarded per your opening sentence). Nice try, Ric!
...the second gun and different caliber bullet found in Louise DeFeo...
Actually, no; there was no 2nd gun. This rumor stems from a bullet that struck Louise DeFeo which was too damaged to determine if it was fired from the exact same rifle, but they could easily determine it matched the same caliber as the others. This is from the ballistics test:
Image
Item #33 is one of the bullets that struck Louise. Item #82 is Ronnie's Marlin rifle. So note how this document says that although they couldn't determine if this bullet was fired from the exact same rifle, they could, however, determine it was fired from a Marlin .35 rifle. So unless there was more than one Marlin .35 rifle used that night, it came from the same gun. Nice try, Ric...
...the DeFeos’ bodies being moved and the bloodstained floors...
Wrong again. The bodies weren't moved. The police know this because the bullets passed through the bodies and went into pillows or mattresses or hit other items, which clearly showed everyone was shot in bed. The exception being one bullet that remained in the father's body (the other passing through him and burrowing into his pillow or mattress). So no, the evidence shows they were not moved after all.

And there were no bloodstained floors. A private detective working for the defense (Herman Race) thought there might be, but could provide no evidence of such -- it was just a theory of his. According to official records, the police found a stain on the carpet, tested it and found it contained no blood:
Image
Image
Nice try, Ric!
...the undeniable Mob elements associated with this story...
There are no mob elements associated with this story, except for the crap Geraldine says about the mob helping to hide her identity. So this would be impeached along with the rest of Geraldine's stuff.

Aside from that, there may be a mob connection with the family, but that doesn't mean a connection with the murder of the family. True, Ronnie did at first implicate a mob hit man, but a lie from Ronnie could hardly be considered "an undeniable Mob element associated with this story." Nice try, Ric!
...the Lutzes conspiring with William Weber to write a fictional ghost story...
Nothing to do with the murders. And all we have is Weber's claim that this happened. Just his word against the Lutzes. Anything else comes from Geraldine, which you said we were impeaching. :naughty:

Nice try, Ric!
...a judge who was one of the most corrupt in American history...
Yeah? Was he ever implicated as such or thrown off the bench or anything? What evidence do we have as such? Oh yeah -- nothing! Nice try, Ric!
...and a seventh body.
Which has been debunked by Ric's own publisher and close friend! That's all folks! Let's close the book on poor ol' Ric Osuna! :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

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