If anyone has seen the crime scene photos.......

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics

Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:45 pm

Would it be possible for Dawn to have been out that night, returning after the murders and not knowing everyone was dead?

Do we know if Ronald Sr was sleeping without his blanket on that (probably chilly) November night? He wasn't sleeping on top of the blanket, as shown in the crime scene pics. Could Ronnie have removed the blanket after the shooting to see the bullet holes in his father's back?

George Lutz said that when he stood in the sunroom, he could not hear the cars passing by on the street. Could the house be so well-insulated to have muffled the gun blasts to where they could have sounded like a car backfiring to the neighbors?

I think the family definitely heard the gunshots inside the house. And I think it woke them up. Dawn's body positioning is the only puzzle I can see. She seemed in a natural sleeping position, but as the last one murdered (supposedly, which would make sense if Ronnie started on the 2nd floor with his pop) she should have been fully awake.

During his confession, Ronnie said Dawn got out of her room and called down to him, either asking "Is everything alright" or "Is that you, Butch?" Ronnie assures her everything is okay, she goes back to bed and then Ronnie shoots her.

That, of course, is a very problematic area. It just doesn't seem likely.

Has anyone considered that Ronnie may have raped Dawn after the murders? And maybe after that, sat with his rifle at Dawn's bedroom door as she cried herself to sleep, before eventually killing her (when she finally fell asleep)?

Or maybe Dawn was drugged and the MI's missed it?
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:59 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:
Has anyone considered that Ronnie may have raped Dawn after the murders? And maybe after that, sat with his rifle at Dawn's bedroom door as she cried herself to sleep, before eventually killing her (when she finally fell asleep)?

Or maybe Dawn was drugged and the MI's missed it?


Wow that never crossed my mind, and as much as he hated her, I doubt he would have banged her at any time... In his police interview he referred to her as the "The fat B*tch" and the boys as "pigs" who leave "sh*t" all over the toilet and bathroom, his father was a bastard and his mother was a cheating slut... he was an anti-social psycho, not a sister raper. The only one I honestly think he does regret killing is Allison, he never said a bad thing about her ever... I truly believe he loved her.
Last edited by t00nCiNaToR on Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Howard64 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:02 pm

damn toonce...way to cut thru the malarkey:)
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:26 pm

The murders were sparked by the "Robbery" of the $19,000 from the Buick dealership less than two weeks prior, Butchie's drug habbit was out of control and he needed the money to buy dope, why would he even bother stealing money if like he "says" his father would give him $5000.00 whenever he wanted(Bull$hit)?, his father knew he was a liar, druggie and a thief, he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar, only this time he was in it too deep for even him to help. "If" the dealership was "mobbed" up they would not have taken lightly to the theft period. Even if it wasn't, the police were closing in and would have arrested him anyway(Grand Theft) had he not have killed his family, after which the charges were dropped, or maybe it was a combination of the two. He was in way too deep and didn't see a light at the end of the Long Island tunnel, his answer was clear, kill his parents and get the ca$h and either run or pay his way out(So he thought). The rest were killed cause they were witnesses plain and simple.

The murders themselves were simple, shoot both parents twice, then over to Allison's room and shoot her in the face as she turns to look at the door when he opens it, go to the boys room and tell them to roll over on their stomachs even go as far as doing it for them if their leg is broken, which they do(Easier to shoot family members in the back). Then it's time to reload, go upstairs, Dawn asks him from the third floor landing if everythings ok(In Shock and scared as Hell) on the landing between the second and third floor he answers "Yeah, go back to bed..." With the rifle in his right hand she wouldn't have seen it in the dimly lit hall, goes to his room, reloads and over to Dawns room to struggle a bit, knock her out, place her in a sleeping position, re-cover her up and shoot her in the back of the head. Done... If you've seen the crimescene photos and saw Dawns concaved head there would have been no way to tell if she was hit, the bullet caused way too much trauma, not to mention he probably shot her seconds after hitting her, swelling only happends when the heart is beating.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 pm

I'm right there with you all the way, but you lose me at the end.

Why would Ronnie bother to put her back in bed? And even if he did, why take the extra step of positioning her body in a natural sleeping position (with the one leg bent)?

t00nCiNaToR wrote:
Dan the Damned wrote:
Has anyone considered that Ronnie may have raped Dawn after the murders?


... he was an anti-social psycho, not a sister raper.


Well, the two aren't mutually exclusive, are they?

I'm just trying to think of some possible reason for Dawn's positioning in bed. But now that I think about it, a rape is probably unlikely. They checked for signs of "mutual exchange" (such as Ronnie's skin under Dawn's fingernails, which would likely happen in a struggle or a rape). Nothing was found. No evidence of a struggle.
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:59 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:They checked for signs of "mutual exchange" (such as Ronnie's skin under Dawn's fingernails, which would likely happen in a struggle or a rape). Nothing was found. No evidence of a struggle.


Noooo, I've smucked guys in the face and even CSI's Grisham would not have found a trace of me on them... but they still woke up face down on the pavement, trust me. :)
Last edited by t00nCiNaToR on Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:03 pm

But why bother to lift Dawn's body onto the bed and carefully reposition it into a sleeping position, tuck the covers in and then shoot?
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:10 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:But why bother to lift Dawn's body onto the bed and carefully reposition it into a sleeping position, tuck the covers in and then shoot?


The interview I heard, he said she landed on the bed after he "Lambasted" her, where when you think about it she would have landed if he was in the doorway and hit her as she was getting out of bed, she was a big girl, 180#'s as far as I know, dead weight he could never have lifted her but if she spun and landed on the bed, he's halfway there, you gotta know this guys adrenalin was through the roof, I think he got lucky how the bodies ended up, that's all.

Here's the "struggle" area:

Image

If I was to right hook anyone they would land on the bed, if I used a rifle and right hooked em, they might go over the bed and hit the floor closer to the closet.
Last edited by t00nCiNaToR on Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:17 pm

I think if Dawn "landed" on the bed, she would be more apt to land like this:

Image

...or at best like this:

Image

But she was found pefectly lined up in bed, not askew. And from the bullet holes, we know she wasn't moved AFTER the shooting. So any repositioning of the body would have been BEFORE the shooting.

This seems kinda unlikely, don't ya think?
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:21 pm

Fine, I agree... But even a small man like butchie could have placed her the way she looked in the crimescene photos with ease... I know I could have in a relaxed state, this guy was in Panic mode.

Remember, I believe he moved her before he shot her, it may have taken 30-40 seconds but after that... BOOM!

I believe what you might be thinking is that he shot her where she hit the bed, why not move her first and make it look like she died like the rest of her family... in her sleep.

But I still believe she landed very close to how she was found.
Last edited by t00nCiNaToR on Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:28 pm

Yes, I agree -- if he repositioned her, he must have done it before shooting (at least with regard to her head positioning).

My question is not IF he could do it, but WHY.
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:35 pm

That we'll never know, but if I just shot 5 people in the back(head) in bed, I wouldn't want anything to look out of place, who knows what the guy was thinking, nobody knows except Butchie... The only thing that hasn't changed in Butchie's story since November 14th 1974 is how he killed Dawn... very important info.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:43 pm

Well...

Just prior to his confession, he said Dawn came out of her room and called down, asking if everything was okay. Ronnie said it was, she went back insider her room and he then went to her room and killed her.

That is pretty close to his first confession, where he says Dawn came out of her room and asked "Is that you, Butch," before going back inside and later being shot.

But of course, back then Ronnie made no claims of a struggle between himself and Dawn. That came later, when Ronnie started to claim that Dawn killed the kids.

So the only consistency in his stories of Dawn was that she was killed last.
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:52 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:Well...

Just prior to his confession, he said Dawn came out of her room and called down, asking if everything was okay. Ronnie said it was, she went back insider her room and he then went to her room and killed her.

That is pretty close to his first confession, where he says Dawn came out of her room and asked "Is that you, Butch," before going back inside and later being shot.

But of course, back then Ronnie made no claims of a struggle between himself and Dawn. That came later, when Ronnie started to claim that Dawn killed the kids.

So the only consistency in his stories of Dawn was that she was killed last.


alright sounds good, as long as we agree they didn't scr$w... :)

I personally like this one especially if they landed facedown, even a 10 year old could easily place her from this postion to the way she was found... She's practically there already... ;)

Image
Last edited by t00nCiNaToR on Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:02 pm

Yeah, you're probably right. Its probably far-fetched that there was a rape there.

Ronnie (at one point) said Dawn was taking a shower. In the book "High Hopes" they say Dawn was menstruating.

I know nothing about that, but is it reasonable to think that maybe Dawn took a shower at 3am, due to her period? And maybe the gun blasts sounded "not so urgent" due to the noise of the shower? Hmmm... Maybe not...

And something else I don't understand -- in "High Hopes" it says, "She had been menstruating and her sheets were sodden with blood beneath the pink blanket."

But wouldn't she have been wearing a tampon if she was menstruating? Was it removed? How did all that blood get on her sheets like that?
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:11 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:Ronnie (at one point) said Dawn was taking a shower. In the book "High Hopes" they say Dawn was menstruating.


These were two seperate incidents, check again.

Dan the Damned wrote:I know nothing about that, but is it reasonable to think that maybe Dawn took a shower at 3am, due to her period? And maybe the gun blasts sounded "not so urgent" due to the noise of the shower? Hmmm... Maybe not...


Nobody wakes up at 3:00am just to take a shower then go back to bed. And there's no such thing as an "Non-Urgent" rifle blast in your house.

Dan the Damned wrote:And something else I don't understand -- in "High Hopes" it says, "She had been menstruating and her sheets were sodden with blood beneath the pink blanket."


Yes, she was.

Dan the Damned wrote:But wouldn't she have been wearing a tampon if she was menstruating? Was it removed? How did all that blood get on her sheets like that?


Wow, maybe a girl can answer this question, I've never had the problem, but I'm sure it could sneak up on you and possibly be exasperated from a bullet in the brain.
Last edited by t00nCiNaToR on Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby msmart112 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:16 pm

t00nCiNaToR wrote: In EVERY single account I have heard Butchie tell of the night in Question, he ALWAYS wrestles with Dawn and the gun. I mean before he was arrested, not at the police station when he said it was the mob, but since... yeah.


Not only did Ronnie never mention anything about wrestling with Dawn to the police…he also never mentioned it while he was in jail awaiting trial (e.g. the stories he gave to James DeVito, John Kramer, and Phyllis Procita).

He never mentioned wrestling with Dawn at trial.

In his 1979 interview with Hans Holzer…he didn’t mention anything about wrestling with Dawn.

In his 1986 interview with Bob Keeler...he claimed that he didn’t even kill Dawn (let alone wrestle with her).

At his 2007 parole hearing…he didn’t mention anything about wrestling with Dawn.

Oddly enough…in the 1986 interview…when Ronnie described killing his mother (after she had killed Dawn, Allison, Marc, and John)…he said that she said…

“Oh my God Butch!”

…and then he said that he picked-up the rifle…hit the lever…and shot his mother. He also said that he was mentally out of it.

Once the “Dawn story” came around several years later…when Ronnie described killing Dawn (after she had killed everyone else)…he said that she said…

“Oh my God Butch!”

…and then he said that he picked-up the rifle…hit the lever…and shot Dawn. He also said that he was mentally out of it.

Imagine that. :roll:
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:19 pm

OK you win, tired now, goin to bed.

msmart112 wrote:
“Oh my God Butch!”

…and then he said that he picked-up the rifle…hit the lever…and shot his mother. He also said that he was mentally out of it.

Once the “Dawn story” came around several years later…when Ronnie described killing Dawn (after she had killed everyone else)…he said that she said…

“Oh my God Butch!”

…and then he said that he picked-up the rifle…hit the lever…and shot Dawn. He also said that he was mentally out of it.

Imagine that. :roll:


These are all very good points.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:32 pm

t00nCiNaToR wrote:Nobody wakes up at 3:00am just to take a shower then go back to bed. And there's no such thing as an "Non-Urgent" rifle blast in your house.


I know those are seperate incidents, but I am wondering if Dawn was menstruating, perhaps she awoke around 3am and felt uncomfortable and/or dirty. And maybe she thought she'd take a quick shower, freshen up and use a fresh tampon, perhaps.

I'm not trying to be funny or gross -- I really don't know. But if I was wearing adult diapers, and wet them during the night, I might want to take a quick 3am shower and put on a fresh pair of diapers before returning to bed. I know that's very different from a tampon, but its the closet I would ever get.

Again, I don't know if girls do that or not.

But if it did cause her to take a shower, perhaps the noise of the shower is what woke up Ronnie in the TV room. And perhaps the noise of the shower muffled the sounds of the rifle blasts. Not muffled as in "muted," but muffled so that Dawn wasn't sure if it was a gun blast or something falling, etc.

So in the shower, she might hear a few "bangs," but perhaps she wouldn't recognize them as gun blasts. I'm wondering if that is a possibility.

Dan the Damned wrote:But wouldn't she have been wearing a tampon if she was menstruating? Was it removed? How did all that blood get on her sheets like that?


Wow, maybe a girl can answer this question, I've never had the problem, but I'm sure it could sneak up on you and possibly be exasperated from a bullet in the brain.


I guess it sure could sneak up on you, but by 18 years old she would have had a good long while to get used to those things. So if she was menstruating, I would think she was wearing protection. Would her being shot in the head cause an even heavier menstruation? Heavy enough to possibly be too much for a tampon? And would that even be possible?
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:35 pm

OK M. can get real technical but what I'm saying is that Butchie always describes killing Dawn the same way, fight over the rifle, hit, then shot... always the same.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:42 pm

doh
Last edited by t00nCiNaToR on Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It happened so quick. I mean, it was boom, boom, boom. From the first killing to the last, it never took any longer than seven seconds,
it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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