If anyone has seen the crime scene photos.......

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics

Postby astonio » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:16 pm

If Dawn returned home after everyone had been killed, wouldn't she have 'smelled' something? I'm thinking the smell of gunfire or the smell reported from Butch as coming from Allison's room.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:24 pm

Ah. Good point. Might be too early for smells from the bodies to permeate that house, but yeah, there'd be the smell from the gunfire I'd assume.
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:54 pm

What if she was abducted by aliens and returned in the future when the lutzes lived there and that made George think he was seeing a ghost but actually it was Dawn semi invisible to normal time walkers... But then they returned her to her normal time, fell asleep and then was killed? This kind of speculation can go on forever, we have to go by Butchies word and the evidence, that's it.
Last edited by t00nCiNaToR on Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby astonio » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:54 pm

Butch stated a specific 'smell' coming from Allison, I would assume, shotly after the murders. Never completely understood the reference, but I think it was distinct enough for his mention.
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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:59 pm

The whole place would have smelled like a slaughter house minutes after it happened, blood has a very distinct smell, especially that much, not to mention the brain matter, urine and who knows what else... it would have been rank when the bodies were found.
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it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby astonio » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:27 pm

Dang, Toon...you're right, of course, but detailed.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:22 pm

t00nCiNaToR wrote:What if she was abducted by aliens and returned in the future when the lutzes lived there and that made George think he was seeing a ghost but actually it was Dawn semi invisible to normal time walkers... But then they returned her to her normal time, fell asleep and then was killed?


That's probably a better theory than Ronnie entering Dawn's room with a gun, refraining from shooting her outright, knocking her unconscious, throwing her body onto the bed, turning her over, arranging her to look as if she was laying in a natural sleeping position, tucking the covers in and then blowing her brains out. :roll:


t00nCiNaToR wrote:This kind of speculation can go on forever, we have to go by Butchies word and the evidence, that's it.


I hope this is just an instance of you mangling the phrase, "all we have to go on is Butchies word and the evidence." Otherwise it sounds like you are saying we should take Ronnie's word for it. And obviously we can't do that. He's a habitual liar.

And how can speculation go on when you decree "The only way for Dawn to have died in her sleep is if she was in on it..."? If speculation can still go on, then obviously your theory is not the only possible solution, is it?
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Postby # 13 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:50 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:
t00nCiNaToR wrote:What if she was abducted by aliens and returned in the future when the lutzes lived there and that made George think he was seeing a ghost but actually it was Dawn semi invisible to normal time walkers... But then they returned her to her normal time, fell asleep and then was killed?


That's probably a better theory than Ronnie entering Dawn's room with a gun, refraining from shooting her outright, knocking her unconscious, throwing her body onto the bed, turning her over, arranging her to look as if she was laying in a natural sleeping position, tucking the covers in and then blowing her brains out. :roll:


t00nCiNaToR wrote:This kind of speculation can go on forever, we have to go by Butchies word and the evidence, that's it.


I hope this is just an instance of you mangling the phrase, "all we have to go on is Butchies word and the evidence." Otherwise it sounds like you are saying we should take Ronnie's word for it. And obviously we can't do that. He's a habitual liar.

And how can speculation go on when you decree "The only way for Dawn to have died in her sleep is if she was in on it..."? If speculation can still go on, then obviously your theory is not the only possible solution, is it?


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Postby t00nCiNaToR » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:02 pm

# 13 wrote:
Dan the Damned wrote:
t00nCiNaToR wrote:What if she was abducted by aliens and returned in the future when the lutzes lived there and that made George think he was seeing a ghost but actually it was Dawn semi invisible to normal time walkers... But then they returned her to her normal time, fell asleep and then was killed?


That's probably a better theory than Ronnie entering Dawn's room with a gun, refraining from shooting her outright, knocking her unconscious, throwing her body onto the bed, turning her over, arranging her to look as if she was laying in a natural sleeping position, tucking the covers in and then blowing her brains out. :roll:


t00nCiNaToR wrote:This kind of speculation can go on forever, we have to go by Butchies word and the evidence, that's it.


I hope this is just an instance of you mangling the phrase, "all we have to go on is Butchies word and the evidence." Otherwise it sounds like you are saying we should take Ronnie's word for it. And obviously we can't do that. He's a habitual liar.

And how can speculation go on when you decree "The only way for Dawn to have died in her sleep is if she was in on it..."? If speculation can still go on, then obviously your theory is not the only possible solution, is it?


:clap:


Hahahaha what ya have to do is look enough at him and watch his body language and his mannerisms, you have to be able to tell when he's BS'ing and when he's remembering, to be honest, he's convinced himself he didn't kill the kids and that, that's the only way he could get out of bed in the morning, but when he was young he was more of a braggart and that's when most of the truth really came out. But that's just me talkin' sorry.
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it would be alot, that would have been alot. Seven seconds." - Ronald J. DeFeo Jr.
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Postby Daria » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:22 pm

Just adding my 2 cents that I too have often wondered if Dawn could have come home after the murders, gone to bed and been murdered later that night. I haven't looked at the crime scene photos, nor do I have any idea what it would have been like in that house, but I do believe that she was asleep when killed and could not imagine climbing back into bed after hearing repeated gunfire in my home. (Let alone drifting off to sleep.)

If she had been drinking or was high, might that have "blinded" her to the state of things, and she not noticed?
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Postby lori52976 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:49 pm

Maybe he really did use a silencer and the police did sloppy police work to a point where they couldnt really prove he used it. So to make it easier they said it didnt show signs of a silencer being used, the only other way to convict him would have been to get him to confess which wasnt a hard thing to do....in my opinion to get all those people in almost natural sleeping positions they could not have heard anything...there were no signs of struggles anywhere.... no struggling, everyone in a sleeping position..no blood found anywhere else except where they were found...and no neighbors hearing 7 gunshots...i mean we make all these scenarios about what could have happend and what we think really did happen but what about the police just being sloppy? if they didnt perserve the evidence correctly to the point where you can dispute a silencer being used then the subject wouldnt come up it would just be dismissed as "no evidence of that". Maybe it would have done more harm then good for the police to say it.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:04 pm

I don't think they make silencers for a Marlin .35 rifle.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=1159

But there's another problem. If Ronnie went to the trouble to build a homemade silencer, I think that would show this crime was planned in advance.

And maybe it was planned in advance, but then we get back to "why did he kill the kids". I think the kids died because Ronnie panicked after killing his parents, and he suddenly realized he needed to silence the witnesses in the house (his family).

I think the intended target was the father. And if this was planned in advance, I think Ronnie would have planned it to where he and his father were alone somewhere. I don't think the rest of the family would have died.

And if this was planned in advance, I think Ronnie would have taken the time to figure out a solid motive for himself.
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Postby lori52976 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:20 pm

I do think this crime was somewhat planned...he made sure he had enough bullets for 6 people...not just 1 person...he also killed his dad in his bed with his mother right next to him i dont think he thought he would just shoot his dad and go back to bed...I do believe that he was completely high when he did it and drunk because that would be the only way for someone to have enough nerve to do it....I dont think he really wanted to kill the kids but if he had enough of a mental illness to just kill one person his father then i cant see him rationalizing to not kill his brothers and sisters. He is already capeable of murder and killing his own father so what is to stop him from choosing or not choosing to kill his brothers and sisters. I think he hated his whole family and thought his family was against him and he just snapped.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:44 pm

Enough bullets for 6 people? He was at home. He probably had enough bullets for 60 people.

I don't understand how you think this was planned in advance, but he didn't mean for the rest of the family to die? Wouldn't that show lack of planning?

I do agree with one point -- I think he was high at the time. I don't necessarily think he was drunk. If he was drunk, I think we'd see a lot of bullet holes in the walls from him missing his targets (depending on how drunk, i guess)...
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Postby lori52976 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:19 pm

yes enough bullets for 6 people meaning that he had more than enough bullets on him during the shooting. He didnt just load 2 or 3 to shoot his dad, he put enough bullets in his gun to shoot more than one person as oppossed to running back to his room to grab more and re load...i did say somewhat planned, meaning planned that night not weeks in advance. if you are going to shoot just one person why would you fully load your weapon and carry more on you?
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Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:33 pm

You can't expect each bullet to find its target every time. What if the first few bullets miss, or what if you just wound the victim instead of killing them, and they are able to still get up and fight?

I don't own a gun (hi burglars! :D ), but I'd think it weird if people didn't load their guns fully when going to shoot someone. Its not like it takes a lot of extra time, and you're not wasting the bullets.

Following that logic, if he loaded 6 bullets in order to kill EVERYONE, then would he have wasted 2 bullets each on his parents? That meant he had to reload at some point...
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Postby lori52976 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:39 pm

Yes but he was shooting his father at close range in his own bed while he was sleeping, I think even the most in expierienced person could have done it in 2 shots or even 3. He loaded it fully and reloaded. Just saying that to me that indicates some type of intention to kill more than one person.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:00 pm

But you're looking at this from a future perspective.

Yes, he did end up using 2 bullets to kill his father. Does that mean he knew in advance that he would only need 2 bullets?

If a hunter went out to kill one deer, would he just bring one bullet?

Don't most people pack an extra shirt when going on vacation -- just in case?

It makes no sense NOT to fully load your weapon -- even if you don't plan on using that many rounds.

In any case, you seem to contridict yourself. You say you don't think he meant to kill everyone. But then you say by him fully loading his gun, he DID mean to kill everyone.
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Postby astonio » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:14 pm

Some premeditation was somewhat proven; albeit, in between the lines. Bobby Kelske is reported as telling investigators Butch was asking about a silencer prior to the murders. In essence and more than likely with certainty, he thought of killing his family.

It's true, according to the investigation, there is no silencer for the weapon used; however, I think it's often underminded Butch was adept with his weapons. Just because "we" are unable to figure it out, doesn't mean he didn't. Further evidence supports no silencer was used straight from Butch's mouth. He reported a 'ringing' in his ears.

The part of the case that leaves me stunted is the motive of placing Shaggy outside of the house. Butch would have had to come from the second floor, let the dog out, travel back to the third floor for his weapon. My thing is, how would Shaggy have impeded his task if Shaggy stayed on the first floor? Why did Butch think Shaggy's barking wouldn't alert the neighbors? If Shaggy was barking so incessantly to disturb a 15 year old kid two doors down, how could his barking not alarm those closest to the house, its inhabitants....or did it? I mean, Shaggy was outside the boys' window. And did Butch lock Shaggy up in the garbage shed or was he kept just outside the garbage shed doors?
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Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:00 pm

That raises a lot more questions than Shaggy.

If the murders were planned, why did he fail to think up a good alibi? Why didn't he just drug the family's food to keep them in bed? If he was looking for a silencer days in advance, why not postpone the murders until he could get a gun that would work with a silencer? Like the snub-nosed .38 that Kelske said Ronnie fired on several occasions in the parking lot of Henry's bar.

And more importantly, why kill the kids?

If he was planning the murder, why even tell his friend he was looking for a silencer? Wouldn't that look a bit incriminating after the fact?

Kelske also said Ronnie planned and successfully carried out a "hide in burglary" at the car dealership (and that he saw the burglar giving Ronnie his share of the money).

I mean, if Ronnie can plan that out, I would think he'd plan his family's murder out just a tad better than how it went down.
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Postby astonio » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:37 am

Imma give it my best, so here goes:

Dan the Damned wrote:That raises a lot more questions than Shaggy.

If the murders were planned, why did he fail to think up a good alibi? Ans: His intelligence level isn't that great. I believe he just didn't think that completely far in advance. He enacted an alibi, of sorts, by disposing of the evidence and heading to work as usual, assuring he made himself visible through out the day of the 13th by visiting the diner in the morning, taking off a little early from work, heading to Mindy's house, running into Bobby, going to the mall with Mindy, stopping by his friend's house to shoot up, having drinks at Henry's...all the while ensuring he was visibly concerned with not being able to reach anyone at the house.

Why didn't he just drug the family's food to keep them in bed?
Ans: He would have had to have the proficiency of a pharmacist to administer the correct amount of dosage of whatever drug to incapacitate a 280lb man middle aged man to a 9 year old little boy. Intelligence factor played a part in this.

If he was looking for a silencer days in advance, why not postpone the murders until he could get a gun that would work with a silencer? Ans: Because no such silencer was made for a weapon of that caliber and size, so he wouldn't have found such a silencer this way. It didn't exist. Maybe consideration of using a different caliber weapon did come to mind, but everything was "right" that night and he moved forward believing if he stuck to his story, he "could" have been absolved of the crime.

Like the snub-nosed .38 that Kelske said Ronnie fired on several occasions in the parking lot of Henry's bar.
Response: I'm confused when you mention this. Was this .38 outfitted with a silencer? And with his father's girth and that caliber of handgun, maybe he questioned if he would have even been successful in murdering everyone without only wounding them.

And more importantly, why kill the kids?
Ans: Today I believe he feels remorse for the kids, but in '74, not so much. During his questioning with the police, his disdain, to put it mildly, for his siblings and family members was evidenced by his descriptive comments of them. On top of which, had he spared the kids, as you have mentioned, they would have easily pointed the finger at him for the crime.

If he was planning the murder, why even tell his friend he was looking for a silencer? Wouldn't that look a bit incriminating after the fact? Ans: Only if he, say, the next day after not finding a silencer, he kills the whole family could one make the distinct connection to his asking for a silencer. Moreover, what would he have been needing a silencer for? It's a hunting rifle. Would he have been able to tell Bobby, I want to kill my family?

Kelske also said Ronnie planned and successfully carried out a "hide in burglary" at the car dealership (and that he saw the burglar giving Ronnie his share of the money).

I mean, if Ronnie can plan that out, I would think he'd plan his family's murder out just a tad better than how it went down.
Ans: Theft from his grandfather's dealership and the planning of such theft is much lesser than planning murder. Same species, per se, but different animals, if you will.


Conclusion: You have to understand, things were coming to an incredible boil by this point. There were events taking place where his parents very well may have intended to no longer support him, even in defense when concerning the robbery. It may have been the last straw. The "theft" at the dealership ($19K+) occurred two weeks prior. The Friday before the murders, he gets into it with his dad. The Saturday before the murders, he gets busted by his father returning home with a bunch of new clothes and unable to account to his recent windfall. It was his mother's dealership and she probably felt more than slighted by Butch's actions. His parents simply did not believe his story or understand his lack of cooperation with the police to uncover it. He wouldn't or couldn't pick out anyone from photographs. He probably caught more than an earful of possibly his parents discussing the issue of the theft and concluding they are wiping their hands. With this stigmatism floating over his head the two weeks prior to the murders, I'm sure he began to appear different and more troubled in his siblings eyes. No one was believing him and therefore, expendable. Think, if the kids lived, they would have been able to provide not only the identity of their parents' killer, but also the motive, with being privvy to household discussions.
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