If anyone has seen the crime scene photos.......

[t00nCiNaToR]

So in the shower, she might hear a few "bangs," but perhaps she wouldn't recognize them as gun blasts. I'm wondering if that is a possibility.

No, even in the shower a floor away a .35 Remington discharging would rattle your teeth, you'd feel the percussion in your feet from the tub vibrating. It would be crazy loud. Mind you I've never fired mine in a house, but I've heard it fire a mile away when my dad was sighting it in, or so he says, I haven't gotten it zeroed in since then.

[Dan the Damned]

Yes. Even in the shower it would be alarmingly loud. You're right. Mystery continues.

[Brendan72]

I think if Dawn "landed" on the bed, she would be more apt to land like this:



...or at best like this:



But she was found pefectly lined up in bed, not askew. And from the bullet holes, we know she wasn't moved AFTER the shooting. So any repositioning of the body would have been BEFORE the shooting.

This seems kinda unlikely, don't ya think?

So Butch DeFeo killed some stick figures as well? lmao

[Brendan72]

I am interested in hearing ideas on why nobody moved from their beds when the gunshots went off ... or even why no neighbours heard it?

- Ummmm the Irelands heard the gunshot(s) and so did that boy(Nesbit?) who heard the dog screaming.

I read the above theories and I find them credible and possible weighed against evidence based on the photographs and forensic / ballistic evidence - I always thought the victims remained in their beds.

- They did I believe, except Dawn.

It is possible that DeFeo Sr probably was sleeping with the sheets off the bed and was lying there in that position when he was shot. I don't think any of them had the chance to react.

- Yup, except Dawn.

I could give ideas but I am not sure how they could not hear the gunshots going off inside the house ... but even more interesting is how the neighbours didn't.

- But They Did

The Ireland's supposedly heard the gunshots, according to Ric Osuna. How the Ireland's conveniently mention it 25 years after the fact. Also it is interesting how this wasn't mentioned in High Hopes. How they never mentioned it to the police on the night the bodies were discovered and the police used their house as a base - not once when the opportunity arose to mention it did they do so. Which leads me to believe that Osuna was full of crap - que surprise!

What was mentioned in High Hopes was the 15 year old neighbour hearing the DeFeo's dog wailing - I've never heard a dog "scream" before ... yelp, perhaps ... and even wail ... but never scream.

[astonio]

Dawn's autopsy reports states she was wearing two pairs panties and more than likely attributed to her menstrating. I seem to recall there was discussion regarding if Dawn was really menstrating at all as HH stated she was.

Regarding the struggle, can't discount that completely; however, Dr. Adelman (M.E.) addressed this via explaining the laws of exchange. There would have had to have been some evidence of indication of a struggle, i.e., torn clothing, bruising contusions, fibers from him transferred to her and vice versus, he states no such evidence was found.

[Link the Labrador]

Well, a dog screaming is probably different from our kind of screaming. I think Dog DeFeo (Was it Shaggy?)'s screams were more like a continous, loud frantic bark that sounded like screaming from next door.

I don't think Dawn would have taken a shower at 3AM. Not that I'm saying it's impossible, but Butch would have heard the shower running and went in to investigate.

The whole Butch picking Dawn up and putting her back in bed thing is plausible, considering it had been 12-24 hours since the murders. That's MORE than enough time to pick someone up, put them in bed and clean up anything not natural (blood on headrest) or were knocked down.

Struggles don't have to be DBZ epic with torn clothings. Remember, Butch was stronger than she was, he could easily overpower her (and he's got the gun, not her). What if all Butch did was clock her in the head with the gun and shoot her?

But even that's iffy, seeng as the "clean" up stage would have to call for Butch to be frickin' OCD about Dawn's body, going over everything that could be used against him. Hair fibers that don't belong, everything. At best, he may have just cleaned up the blood.

[t00nCiNaToR]

I only say the dog was "screaming" cause that is a quote from Butchie. "While all the was going on the fu$%*ng dog was screaming." and also like I said before, it's very easy to knock somebody out without tearing their clothes or making it appear that there was a struggle or fight of any kind, Butchie was lucky, that's all. And we already know he cleaned up the crimescene because he went room to room picking up the spent casings.

But even that's iffy, seeng as the "clean" up stage would have to call for Butch to be frickin' OCD about Dawn's body, going over everything that could be used against him. Hair fibers that don't belong, everything. At best, he may have just cleaned up the blood.

But what you're saying is he moved her after he shot her, I'm suggesting he moved her before he shot her but after she was knocked out cold.

[sherbetbizarre]

The Ireland's supposedly heard the gunshots, according to Ric Osuna. How the Ireland's conveniently mention it 25 years after the fact. Also it is interesting how this wasn't mentioned in High Hopes. How they never mentioned it to the police on the night the bodies were discovered and the police used their house as a base - not once when the opportunity arose to mention it did they do so. Which leads me to believe that Osuna was full of crap - que surprise!

Actually, this was backed up by Scottie Gee. They both interviewed The Irelands 10 years ago for an unused Histories Mysteries interview.

Apparently "shots" woke Mrs Ireland, she woke her husband, who told her it was probably duck hunters, and she went back to sleep.

Some weeks later, she remembered waking up to "shots", and thought it must have been the night of the murders. So that's why she didn't tell the police at the time.

How you can forget waking up to such a major incident is highly baffling... more likely she woke a previous night, then put 2 and 2 together later on

[t00nCiNaToR]

The Ireland's supposedly heard the gunshots, according to Ric Osuna. How the Ireland's conveniently mention it 25 years after the fact. Also it is interesting how this wasn't mentioned in High Hopes. How they never mentioned it to the police on the night the bodies were discovered and the police used their house as a base - not once when the opportunity arose to mention it did they do so. Which leads me to believe that Osuna was full of crap - que surprise!

Actually, this was backed up by Scottie Gee. They both interviewed The Irelands 10 years ago for an unused Histories Mysteries interview.

Apparently "shots" woke Mrs Ireland, she woke her husband, who told her it was probably duck hunters, and she went back to sleep.

Some weeks later, she remembered waking up to "shots", and thought it must have been the night of the murders. So that's why she didn't tell the police at the time.

How you can forget waking up to such a major incident is highly baffling... more likely she woke a previous night, then put 2 and 2 together later on

Ya that sounds about right. Except in Nov. I know the river near my house sounds like a small war going on morning and night. I could absolutely believe that a shot from a high powered rifle inside a house may sound like a distant shotgun blast, when the guy was shot in his bedroom across the street from me with a .308(Louder report than the .35) I heard nothing(about 100ft), neither did the neighbour to his left or behind him, about 10ft and 30ft respectively(House distance and not bedrooms). There were 3 shots fired at about 3:00-3:30am. Is it possible nobody heard? Yes. Is it possible she just wanted her 5min of fame? Yes... Could she be telling the truth? Yes.

Oh yeah Brendan it's actually Quel Surprise and not Que Surprise... heh heh... Je suis un Canadien français et vivant à Québec.

Merci.

[Brendan72]

The Ireland's supposedly heard the gunshots, according to Ric Osuna. How the Ireland's conveniently mention it 25 years after the fact. Also it is interesting how this wasn't mentioned in High Hopes. How they never mentioned it to the police on the night the bodies were discovered and the police used their house as a base - not once when the opportunity arose to mention it did they do so. Which leads me to believe that Osuna was full of crap - que surprise!

Actually, this was backed up by Scottie Gee. They both interviewed The Irelands 10 years ago for an unused Histories Mysteries interview.

Apparently "shots" woke Mrs Ireland, she woke her husband, who told her it was probably duck hunters, and she went back to sleep.

Some weeks later, she remembered waking up to "shots", and thought it must have been the night of the murders. So that's why she didn't tell the police at the time.

How you can forget waking up to such a major incident is highly baffling... more likely she woke a previous night, then put 2 and 2 together later on

You're right, how one couldn't attribute this with such a major happening as six murders within the same time-frame is baffling. How nobody else heard it in an apparently quiet neighbourhood is equally baffling.

Having considered this I am assuming that mentioning hearing the gunshots after Butch confessing to the crimes, after the medical examiner determining approximate time of and cause of death, and with everything else revealed between commission of the crime and confession, the Irelands coming forward and saying they heard the gunshots would not have really made much more difference to the investigation - especially when they could be cross-examined by a savvy defence attorney and their recollection of time brough into question - especially when one is awoken by sleep in the middle of the night.

They would not have made as good a witness testimony for the defence as the 15 year old's testimony of hearing the DeFeo dog wailing or the school friend of John DeFeo appearing before the jury in his school uniform - such testimony from youngsters makes a more powerful impact on a juror than vague recollection of two middle aged neighbours who may or may not have heard gun shots in the middle of the night although they could not really recall as they were half asleep at the time and couldn't remember looking at the clock to check what time it was they heard gun shots.

And if Rufus Ireland states he thought it was duck hunters then it really doesn't add credibility to their testimony as by making this assummption would damage even more - since the houses were 30 feet apart and even though 112 was insulated ... it was a high powered rifle after all ... that close it would have made them sit up straight and not attribute it to just "duck hunters" ... not that close to the house anyway. With duck hunters being outside it would have carried a lot further ... but then again when half-asleep it's difficult to make this calculation either way ...so therefore any such testimony could be further discredited by a defence attorney.

I hope this is making sense?

[Dan the Damned]

I don't think Dawn would have taken a shower at 3AM. Not that I'm saying it's impossible, but Butch would have heard the shower running and went in to investigate.

Why would he run up to investigate? Maybe this is something Dawn has done semi-regularly in the past while on her period? And if she started her shower before the murders, maybe this is what woke Ronnie up (he said he fell asleep in front of the TV, woke up later and then killed everyone).

But what I was looking for with the shower theory was a way for Dawn to be unaffected by/during the murders -- a situation where she wasn't freaked out -- allowing her to go back to bed and go back to sleep.

But I think Toonces is right -- even if in the shower, the rifle blasts would probably be too loud for her to not freak out. I was thinking they might be muffled enough so that Ronnie could explain the noise away as him dropping something down the stairs...

The whole Butch picking Dawn up and putting her back in bed thing is plausible, considering it had been 12-24 hours since the murders. That's MORE than enough time to pick someone up, put them in bed and clean up anything not natural (blood on headrest) or were knocked down.

But Dawn's head was determined to be found in the same position as when she was shot -- due to the way the bullet holes lined up. So no, she was not moved after being shot.

Struggles don't have to be DBZ epic with torn clothings. Remember, Butch was stronger than she was, he could easily overpower her (and he's got the gun, not her). What if all Butch did was clock her in the head with the gun and shoot her?

But even that's iffy, seeng as the "clean" up stage would have to call for Butch to be frickin' OCD about Dawn's body, going over everything that could be used against him. Hair fibers that don't belong, everything. At best, he may have just cleaned up the blood.

There ya go. That whole "mutual exhange" thing is not just torn clothes and bruising -- its hair fibers from one person found on the other, the other person's skin found under the fingernails, etc.

The Ireland's supposedly heard the gunshots, according to Ric Osuna. How the Ireland's conveniently mention it 25 years after the fact.

Well one theory that kinda make sense to me is that the neighbors heard the gunshots but didn't want to be involved because of the supposed ties the DeFeos had to organized crime. If they spoke up or phoned the police, they might find themselves testifying against the mob, and that's not the healthiest thing in the world.

I personally like this one especially if they landed facedown, even a 10 year old could easily place her from this postion to the way she was found... She's practically there already...

But that's not my argument. I never said it was impossible for Ronnie to lift or move Dawn's body prior to her death -- I was just asking why he would do so. If Dawn was knocked unconcious before being killed, there is no reason for Ronnie to reposition her body and tuck her into bed before pulling the trigger.

The only thing that hasn't changed in Butchie's story since November 14th 1974 is how he killed Dawn... very important info.

OK M. can get real technical but what I'm saying is that Butchie always describes killing Dawn the same way, fight over the rifle, hit, then shot... always the same.

But that's wrong. Ronnie has been anything BUT consistent with the story of Dawn's death. The whole story of Dawn and Ronnie struggling over the gun didn't come about until 1992 -- almost 20 years after the murders took place!!!

[t00nCiNaToR]

Then I want proof, written or recorded from the mouth of Butchie himself that he shot Dawn while she was sleeping.

I don't think he ever said that. But as hard as it is to believe, even I'm not perfect and I MIGHT be wrong... But I doubt it.

[Dan the Damned]

I apologize -- you're right. I just went back to reference "High Hopes," and had forgotten some of what Ronnie said to Dr Zolan during his psychiatric evaluation.

During that 2nd session with Zolan, Ronnie did, in fact, state that he took the rifle from Dawn, pushed her down onto the bed and shot her.

So the first instance was not in 1992 as I thought, but in 1975 -- a year after the murders.

But still, its a bit misleading to suggest that Ronnie's story has remained consistent in terms of Dawn's death. It hasn't. Because he ONLY mentions a struggle when he goes back to using that one "Dawn killed the kids" story -- and we all know that he keeps changing that. In fact, back in 1974/75, Ronnie had many different stories about who killed his family -- only one of which was Dawn. Over the years, aside from confessing that he killed everyone by himself, Ronnie has blamed the murders on his mother, the mob, a few selected individuals, and a couple of "unknown assailants" -- all this as well as using Dawn as a scapegoat.

[t00nCiNaToR]

I apologize -- you're right. I just went back to reference "High Hopes," and had forgotten some of what Ronnie said to Dr Zolan during his psychiatric evaluation.

During that 2nd session with Zolan, Ronnie did, in fact, state that he took the rifle from Dawn, pushed her down onto the bed and shot her.

So the first instance was not in 1992 as I thought, but in 1975 -- a year after the murders.

But still, its a bit misleading to suggest that Ronnie's story has remained consistent in terms of Dawn's death. It hasn't. Because he ONLY mentions a struggle when he goes back to using that one "Dawn killed the kids" story -- and we all know that he keeps changing that. In fact, back in 1974/75, Ronnie had many different stories about who killed his family -- only one of which was Dawn. Over the years, aside from confessing that he killed everyone by himself, Ronnie has blamed the murders on his mother, the mob, a few selected individuals, and a couple of "unknown assailants" -- all this as well as using Dawn as a scapegoat.

Yep this is true, but everytime I heard him talk about killing Dawn, he's said the same thing over and over, struggle, hit and shot. That's why I believe him on ONLY this fact, not only that, it makes sense, she was the only one who had enough time to get out of bed and put up any kind of fight which very well could have been only to stand up to him before being struck with the rifle then moved(or not) and shot, maybe all he had to do was cover her up and she was shot where she fell. Hard to say, but there's one thing for sure, there's NO WAY in Hell she slept through those 7 shots period.

[Dan the Damned]

And in much the same way, I tend to believe Ronnie that Dawn was killed last. I believe it because she consistently dies last in every version he's ever given (except for the one he gave where his mom was the person who went nuts and killed everyone).

So I can understand your feeling on this.

However, I still must refrain from jumping on that bandwagon, due to lack of evidence of any sort of a struggle. To me, that lack of evidence still trumps Ronnie's words (but I admit its still technically possible for you to be right).

[t00nCiNaToR]

And in much the same way, I tend to believe Ronnie that Dawn was killed last. I believe it because she consistently dies last in every version he's ever given (except for the one he gave where his mom was the person who went nuts and killed everyone).

So I can understand your feeling on this.

However, I still must refrain from jumping on that bandwagon, due to lack of evidence of any sort of a struggle. To me, that lack of evidence still trumps Ronnie's words (but I admit its still technically possible for you to be right).

Not technically, actually... The only way for Dawn to have died in her sleep is if she was in on it and he killed her at a later time say 1-2 hours later which would not have made a difference in body temps and time of death since Mrs. DeFeo kept the heat up to 80 degrees. But even this is un-believable since I'm sure she would have been pretty shaken up and unable to sleep unless she was as nutty as he was.

If it doesn't fit you must acquit!

[msmart112]

And something else I don't understand -- in "High Hopes" it says, "She had been menstruating and her sheets were sodden with blood beneath the pink blanket.

But wouldn't she have been wearing a tampon if she was menstruating? Was it removed? How did all that blood get on her sheets like that?

Due to the enormous amount of blood loss…I think the blood just soaked the mattress that far down.

In TNTDD…Osuna claimed that the blood near her waistline was the result of her having been repositioned after being shot (i.e. that she was further down the bed when shot…and then moved up).

But in the Killing Mum and Dad doc…there is a picture of Allison in bed (even though they state that it was Dawn). It’s not one of the crime scene photos that has been widely circulated in the past ten years.

In the picture…you can see how Allison’s mattress was soaked not only to her waistline…but even below her waistline. And that was in addition to the massive amount of blood that dripped down the side of her bed (and formed a pool on the floor).

So given that…I don’t think it’s surprising that Dawn’s mattress was soaked that far down.

[t00nCiNaToR]

And something else I don't understand -- in "High Hopes" it says, "She had been menstruating and her sheets were sodden with blood beneath the pink blanket.

But wouldn't she have been wearing a tampon if she was menstruating? Was it removed? How did all that blood get on her sheets like that?

Due to the enormous amount of blood loss…I think the blood just soaked the mattress that far down.

In TNTDD…Osuna claimed that the blood near her waistline was the result of her having been repositioned after being shot (i.e. that she was further down the bed when shot…and then moved up).

But in the Killing Mum and Dad doc…there is a picture of Allison in bed (even though they state that it was Dawn). It’s not one of the crime scene photos that has been widely circulated in the past ten years.

In the picture…you can see how Allison’s mattress was soaked not only to her waistline…but even below her waistline. And that was in addition to the massive amount of blood that dripped down the side of her bed (and formed a pool on the floor).

So given that…I don’t think it’s surprising that Dawn’s mattress was soaked that far down.

oooooh but I don't think there was an exit wound with Dawn was there? The exit is where the blood really comes from.
This is more of a question since I don't remember really.

Where as with Allison the bullet exited her ear and ended up bouncing off the wall and falling to the floor.

[msmart112]

Dawn's exit wound was near her left temple.

[t00nCiNaToR]

Dawn's exit wound was near her left temple.

Wow, I would like to get the trajetory angle, that doesn't seem right to me, and by trajectory I mean CSI "lasers" and the like to prove where the gunman was standing. That just seems wrong if he was in the doorway and is shooting from behind and to the left, but bullets do some magical things when they hit bone and other "matter" in the body that's for sure. It sure did make a mess of her face poor thing, at least it was quick and hopefully painless.

[Dan the Damned]

Good point, Max. And looking over those things, yeah, it could be that the blood was just from the wounds and nothing to do with her cycle.

Not technically, actually... The only way for Dawn to have died in her sleep is if she was in on it and he killed her at a later time say 1-2 hours later which would not have made a difference in body temps and time of death since Mrs. DeFeo kept the heat up to 80 degrees. But even this is un-believable since I'm sure she would have been pretty shaken up and unable to sleep unless she was as nutty as he was.

The ONLY way? Just because there is some mystery surrounding Dawn's death, we can't automatically rule everything else out.

What if she was out? Ronnie said Dawn returned home that night at 11pm. What if she really didn't return home until after the murders went down, and didn't realize everyone was dead, and went to bed like normal -- only to be shot by Ronnie a short while later?