The Ryan Katzenbach interviews on Dominion Live Radio

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics

Postby msmart112 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:12 pm

dominionlive wrote:Well, Dan it more then a theory the evidence is out there. You have none to provide.


What evidence is out there?

Can YOU provide any?
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Postby dominionlive » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:30 pm

So you want me to explain to you, why you should tune into a radio show? You're the only one with that answer.
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Postby TigresMeow » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:49 pm

There isn't any evidence out there to prove Ronnie did not kill his family alone. And if someone has any, they probably are not reading it correctly.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:31 pm

dominionlive wrote:Well, Dan it more then a theory the evidence is out there. You have none to provide.


Not true. We have loads of evidence against Ric Osuna's book posted right here in this very forum. Where would you like to start?

dominionlive wrote:Further more I want the person who called in last week (the first caller) I want him to call in this week.


That's me. Is your show every Friday or something?
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Postby msmart112 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:43 pm

dominionlive wrote:Well, Dan it more then a theory the evidence is out there. You have none to provide.


Let's take a look at one of the claims that Ryan made on your show...

"One of the bullets that was taken from Louise was beat up so badly that it was basically unidentifiable. They couldn’t prove that it came from the Marlin, but they also couldn't prove that it didn't. And that one bullet would have probably been the bullet that came from Kelske's gun (.357 Colt Python)."

...this is false. The bullet in question was NOT unidentifiable…and it could NOT have come from a Colt Python.

As the first caller (after Ryan) on your show (I think his name was Dan) clearly pointed out...the police were not able to prove that the one bullet came from the .35 rifle used...but they WERE able to prove that it came from a .35 rifle.

The two bullets recovered from beneath Louise DeFeo were listed as items 22 and 33...

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...both of these bullets were determined to have come from .35 caliber cartridges...as in...RIFLE cartridges...

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After recovering the Marlin rifle...the police cleaned it...and then fired test bullets from it. Then they compared the test bullets to the other bullets recovered from the bodies, beds, etc. They were able to determine that item 22 had been fired in the same Marlin rifle...and that item 33 had been fired in a Marlin rifle...

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After Ronnie confessed to killing every member of his family...he then told the police where he had dumped certain evidence (he even drew them a map). The police then recovered eight expended rifle casings from a storm drain in Brooklyn...

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...all eight of these rifle casings were tested...and all eight of them were determined to have come from the Marlin rifle...

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Here is a picture of the eight expended rifle casings (pictured with two live rounds)...

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...note the shape of those shell casings...as well as the length.

Now take a look at a comparison of the type of round that would be fired from a Colt Python versus the type of round that would be fired from a .35 Marlin rifle...

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...all in all...there is NOTHING to suggest that ANY of the bullets came from a Colt Python handgun...while there is EVERYTHING to suggest that ALL of the bullets came from a Marlin rifle.

dominionlive wrote:Ryan is coming back on the show within the next couple weeks..


Do him a favor...and tell him that if he wants to portray an accurate version of the events in his film...he should leave any and all references to a Colt Python on the cutting room floor. :wink:
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Postby Tim » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:22 pm

Three Cheers for Max and Dan the Damned!!! :beer: Great Detective work, this ought to lay any notion of a handgun to rest.
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Postby sherbetbizarre » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:37 am

Have a heart, msmart - Ryan will now have to write a further 7 pages of script just to talk his way around bullet size.

I cannot wait for this movie forever, you know?
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Postby Tim » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:44 am

It cracks me up how they don't believe in the haunting, but they believe in the crap Ric makes up.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:06 pm

Tim wrote:It cracks me up how they don't believe in the haunting, but they believe in the crap Ric makes up.


That's actually a good point -- do they really believe all this BS they're spouting, or are they simply out to make a buck?

Earlier in this same thread Sherb noted a few items where Ryan "knew better than that." Saying things like "the Lutzes said at their press conference that blood oozed down the walls" when Ryan would know this simply wasn't the case. Anyone who has done any serious investigation of this case knows the claims made at that 1976 press conference AND knows that the Lutzes NEVER said blood or slime oozed down the walls -- the slime was a total invention of Anson and the blood was an invention of Hollywood.

As Sherb noted, there are other similar instances where Ryan says things that he should know not to be true. Ric has done the same, notably during his appearance on the TV program "City Confidential" (as noted in in this other thread).

So when Ric & Ryan say stuff like this, do they seriously believe it to be the truth, or are they outright lying in order to further their agenda of making the Lutzes' story seem "too incredible to be believed"?

And with the issue of the "2nd gun" --

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It clearly states "All the expended bullets and jackets displayed rifling impressions indicating that they had been fired in a Marlin Firearms Co, .35 caliber rifle."

ALL the bullets, including both the bullets which hit Louise. As Max points out, and as the documents show us, one of the bullets which hit Louise (item 33) was determined to have been fired from a .35 Marlin rifle, but there wasn't enough indicators on it to further prove it came from the SAME .35 Marlin rifle which was used against the other family members (the bullet was too damaged to make that determination).

These ballistics test results are clear. Both bullets which hit Louise came from a .35 Marlin rifle. This is not up for debate. This is not a grey area. This is not a "guess" by the police. So:

1) Did Ryan and Ric never see this document (which would show they have NOT done a full and complete investigation into the murders)?

2) Did Ryan and Ric see this, but fail to comprehend what it is clearly stating?

3) Did Ryan and Ric see this, and have since chosen to ignore it since it goes against their pre-determined agenda?

Personally, I think both Ric and Ryan know all too well that their story is BS. I would give them the benefit of the doubt (and suggest they are simply "getting it wrong") but not when they blatantly misrepresent facts and disregard clear evidence. Their actions tell me that they are trying to make it appear as if there is some big mystery which they are uncovering here. Why? In order to sell some crap and make a buck. Ironically the very thing they indignantly accuse others of doing -- making a buck from a family tragedy...
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Postby LongLiveQuarterMoon » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:50 pm

I listened to it live as it happened (the interview with Ryan that is, not the murder LOL) and I have to say the most exciting part I heard was the 80's classics and the cool 'call waiting' interuptions! LOL

Ryan told us NOTHING we hadn't heard before, except some far out BS! I could of had a bag of Doritio's and called Tracey for more information.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:15 pm

Tracey played an important part in showing us all how Geraldine Gates was a fraud. Her thenightexposed website played an important role in tearing down the wild claims made by Osuna.

So many years ago, and Ric/Ryan still haven't gotten the message yet. :roll:
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Postby msmart112 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:02 pm

dominionlive wrote:Why not listen to the interview and find out what really happened?


I did listen...and what "really happened" was that Ryan spewed a lot of recycled BS...and then conveniently covered his arse by disclosing that his film would be "close" to Ric’s book...but that it would present the murders in "“several different formats"...

"I’m going by what Butch, you know, told Ric in 2000 during this interview, and, that’s not to say that the film is going to follow the exact same, the exact same course. I can tell you that it will probably be close, but we also present the murders in several different formats in the film."

Moving right along...tonight I want to cover the ridiculous notion that Mr. DeFeo was shot in the hallway as he was charging Butch (Ronnie), Dawn, and Bobby Kelske.

Mr. DeFeo was shot twice...and BOTH shots entered his BACK...

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One of the bullets entered the lower-left area of his back...and exited near his right nipple...

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...and the other bullet entered the middle of his back and became lodged in his neck...

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So just how could Mr. DeFeo have been shot while charging into the hallway...if BOTH of his entrance wounds were located on his BACK side? Was he charging backwards? :roll:

dominionlive wrote:Ryan is coming back on the show within the next couple weeks..


Ask him if he ever asked Dr. Adelman about this particular line from Ric’s book...

"But according to Butch and Geraldine, Michael Brigante Sr. learned that the medical examiner, under the direction of the Suffolk County homicide squad, purposely mislabeled the entrance and exit wounds on Big Ronnie in order to support the homicide squad’s case against Butch."

:roll:
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Postby Tim » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:05 am

And There It Is there.........
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Postby Dan the Damned » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:29 am

msmart112 wrote:
dominionlive wrote:Ryan is coming back on the show within the next couple weeks..


Ask him if he ever asked Dr. Adelman about this particular line from Ric’s book...

"But according to Butch and Geraldine, Michael Brigante Sr. learned that the medical examiner, under the direction of the Suffolk County homicide squad, purposely mislabeled the entrance and exit wounds on Big Ronnie in order to support the homicide squad’s case against Butch."

:roll:


And even if that were true, how would reversing the entrance and exit wounds help or hurt the case against Ronnie? What difference would it make whether or not Ronald Sr was shot both times in bed or once in the hallway?

It doesn't. It doesn't help the police's case at all to have the jury believe Ronald Sr was shot in bed versus the hallway.

And how about Ronald Sr's heart? Gerard Sullivan was the prosecuting attorney in the case against Ronnie DeFeo. During the trial, (and in his book about the case, "High Hopes") he says that Ronald Sr's heart was destroyed by one of the bullets. Osuna even confirms this fact (which he supposedly got from reading Dr. Adelman's postmortem exam).

We have two bullet holes in Ronald's back, and another above and to the right of his right nipple (between the right nipple and the right armpit). Here's Max's drawing again for reference:

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If you line up this bullet hole (near the RIGHT armpit) with either of the wounds on his back, neither comes near the heart area. However, if you line up the holes on his back to the neck area (where the other bullet had lodged), that does go near the heart area.

The claim is that Ronald was shot first as he lay in bed, and then later when he got out of bed and charged towards the hallway where Ronnie was. Since this bullet (which destroyed the heart) entered the body from the back and moved up to the neck, it must be the first shot, delievered as Ronald was lying in bed. The 2nd shot must be the one that involved the right nipple area.

In Osuna's book, he describes Ronald being hunched over when he charged towards Ronnie, so the inference is made that this 2nd shot entered near the right nipple and exited his lower back. This is the bullet path that comes nowhere near the heart.

So the bullet which destroyed Ronald's heart was the one that entered his lower back and got lodged in his neck area -- the first shot that was fired. We are to believe that Ronald was shot and yet despite his heart being destroyed, he was still able to get out of bed and lunge towards the hallway? Isn't that impossible? If the heart is destroyed, there is nothing to pump the necessary blood to the muscles which are needed to enable someone to get out of bed and move around, right? So wouldn't it literally be impossible for Ronald to have gotten out of bed?
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Postby Link the Labrador » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:23 am

Wait, what's this I'm hearing about Ronald Sr. charging Butch in the hallway?

I'm not that all smart about gunshot wounds, but I think if you're shot twice in the back, you're not gonna be moving around much.
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Postby msmart112 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:49 am

dominionlive wrote:Why not listen to the interview and find out what really happened?


Here’s another comment that Ryan made during the interview...

"The unofficial version of what happened is that those Suffolk County cops beat the living hell out of Butch and Bobby Kelske both for in excess of 20 hours."

...unofficial indeed...and also untrue.

From High Hopes...

"Gozaloff and Harrison went home to change clothes and freshen up. They returned to homicide at 8:45 a.m. Fifteen minutes later, Harrison said it was time and he, Gozaloff and Napolitano went into the file room. Ronnie was still sleeping, and Harrison shook him by the shoulder. “Did you find Falini yet?” Ronnie asked as he came awake."

...Ronnie was woken-up at 9:00 a.m. on November 14th by detectives so that they could begin interviewing him (as he was now their prime suspect).

This was also stated in The Night The DeFeos Died...a book that Ryan Katzenbach once published...

"At 9:00 a.m. on November 14, 1974, the homicide detectives decided to awaken Butch to inform him that he was their sole suspect because they felt a .35-caliber Marlin, which they knew Butch had owned from the empty Marlin box in his room, was the murder weapon."

...more from TNTDD...

"It was 9:00 a.m. on November 14, when the torture began."

Yet...at 6:45 p.m. on November 14th...Suffolk County Deputy Police Commissioner Robert Rapp announced that Ronnie had been arrested.

So according to TNTDD...the alleged "torture" would have occurred over LESS than 10 hours...but now Ryan claims that it took place IN EXCESS of 20 hours?

:roll:

BTW...does this man look as though he had just had the "living hell" beaten out of him for "in excess" of 20 hours...

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:roll:
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Postby Howard64 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:52 am

BTW...does this man look as though he had just had the "living hell" beaten out of him for "in excess" of 20 hours...



Not at all...
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Postby Link the Labrador » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:14 am

Howard64 wrote:
BTW...does this man look as though he had just had the "living hell" beaten out of him for "in excess" of 20 hours...



Not at all...


Though I wish he was, the little worm. >____>

Sorry for my callous attitude. I don't think childkillers (of which Butchie is. Even worst that those children were his BROTHERS) should go to jail looking nice.
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Postby Dan the Damned » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:23 am

Link the Labrador wrote:Wait, what's this I'm hearing about Ronald Sr. charging Butch in the hallway?


It's one of those 'tidbits' in Osuna's book. Osuna claims he got this information during his interviews with Ronnie and Geraldine Gates (who falsely claimed to have been married to Ronnie at the time, despite later evidence that she was married to a guy named Joe Pisani, but that's a whole other story). And this was repeated in last week's interview by Ryan.

The story goes that Ronnie shot both his mother and father once. Then the father got out of bed and started approaching Ronnie. Ronnie backed out into the hallway, all scared, and then realized he was still holding the gun, so Ronnie shot him a 2nd time, and Ronnie fell to the floor, dead. Ric explains the trajectory of the bullet by saying that Ronnie was hunched over. so the bullet entered near his right nipple and exited through his lower back. Then later they claim the police purposely lied and said the exit wound on the back was an entrance wound, in an effort to make the case "easier" for them (and at the same time needlessly putting the entire case in jeopardy and risking setting a murderer free by falisifying evidence).

I believe Ryan's version was slightly different. I'm going by memory, but I think Ryan said that Dawn shot the father first, and that Ronnie then grabbed the gun and shot the mother (followed by the rest).

Why do Ric and Ryan cling to this? Because their whole story revolves around "other people helping Ronnie with the murders." And by having the father get out of bed, the argument can then be made that "Ronnie could not, on his own, have lifted his father to put him back into bed (where he was found)."

So they need this to be true. Same with the 2nd gun theory -- they ignore the evidence (again, saying the police have lied) and say that a 2nd gun was used, showing that it wasn't Ronnie, alone, who killed the family.

Ric and Ryan have a jigsaw puzzle showing a house in the country, but instead they want to see a sports car, so they purposely arrange the pieces the wrong way around and smash them together. In the end it's a jumbled mess, but they swear it looks kinda like a sports car to them. And if you press them on it, they'll say, "well it's sort of surrealist painting of how a sports car might feel..."




I may be wrong, but I don't believe Ronnie ever gave this version of the story to the media or in public or anything (with his dad being shot and then getting out of bed and charging like a bull). He's given so many different versions, it's hard to keep track.
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Postby msmart112 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:42 pm

dominionlive wrote:Why not listen to the interview and find out what really happened?


Ryan said…

"Basically, he (Mr. DeFeo) had been beating the oldest kids around as the younger kids were getting, were getting older, he was starting to subject them to the same abuse."

...according to whom?

Geraldine? :roll:

dominionlive wrote:Ryan is coming back on the show within the next couple weeks..


Ask him if he ever spoke to Patrick O’Reilly...who lived a few houses to the south of 112...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V18li3GPtN8
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Postby Dan the Damned » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:02 pm

Any other questions we can help you with?
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