8 Expended Shells

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
Diver
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8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:35 am

There has been a lot of discussion recently of the value of the original evidence, particularly that there were 8 expended shells found in a Brooklyn sewer, and 8 corresponding projectiles found at the crime scene. Just curious, has anyone ever seen an actual photograph of these shells in the sewer?
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sherbetbizarre
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by sherbetbizarre » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:08 am

Yes, they are up on Ric Osuna's website...

http://www.amityvillemurders.com/csgallery/index5.html

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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:29 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:Yes, they are up on Ric Osuna's website...

http://www.amityvillemurders.com/csgallery/index5.html
Thank you, but I am looking for a picture that clearly shows eight spent shells. Not seeing that in there.

And look! I got the quote thing right!
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astonio
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by astonio » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:37 am

Image
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:50 am

astonio wrote:Image

Thanks Astonio, but that picture shows 5 expended shells, 2 live shells, and 3 shells whose status cannot be determined. I'm looking for a picture that shows 8 fired shell casings at the sewer.
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astonio
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by astonio » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:56 am

This is from the Brooklyn sewer. The 8 shells are within the pistol holder's strap. So, from what I can see, I show 8 shells and two live rounds.

Am I mistaken? :?
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:03 am

astonio wrote:This is from the Brooklyn sewer. The 8 shells are within the pistol holder's strap. So, from what I can see, I show 8 shells and two live rounds.

Am I mistaken? :?

From what I can see, 3 of the shells are partially covered by the strap and it is impossible to tell whether they have been fired or not.
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astonio
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by astonio » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:23 am

This is the only photo where they are laid out on the concrete. There are other photos from the link Sherb provided to Ric's site; however, you'll need to really examine them as the autumn leaves blends the shells' coloring. Yet, the ballistics report cites retrieving 8 shells...
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:41 am

astonio wrote:This is the only photo where they are laid out on the concrete. There are other photos from the link Sherb provided to Ric's site; however, you'll need to really examine them as the autumn leaves blends the shells' coloring. Yet, the ballistics report cites retrieving 8 shells...

Yes, it does say that, doesn't it. I was just curious if there was any photographic evidence to back that up.
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by astonio » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:59 am

You know, I'm certain the police photographer took more than 3 pics of the items in the sewer. I've never seen more than the photos previously released though. From the way the items were discovered once the sewer grid was removed, if there is a way to lighting what is there to indicate each item. Not sure how successful this will be considering some shells "could" be beneath the leaves and other items.
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Rokiisun » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:26 am

I'm not an expert on bullets, but how can you tell from the shells which ones have been used up?

At first I thought maybe it was determined by the color of the shells - some appear darker than others,
(I'm guessing the darker ones were shot from the barrel) but then I notice how some of the rounded tips are
still present on both the gold shells and the burnt ones - one of which looks very rusted in comparison to the
others...
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:42 am

Rokiisun wrote:I'm not an expert on bullets, but how can you tell from the shells which ones have been used up?

At first I thought maybe it was determined by the color of the shells - some appear darker than others,
(I'm guessing the darker ones were shot from the barrel) but then I notice how some of the rounded tips are
still present on both the gold shells and the burnt ones - one of which looks very rusted in comparison to the
others...
If you can see the projectile (rounded tip) at the end of the bullet then it has not been fired. In the picture that Astonio posted, 2 of the bullets are unfired, 5 are fired, and 3 are unknown because the end of the bullets are hidden by the leather strap. As far as the coloring goes, it kind of looks more like a result of the reflection of the camera flash than anything else.
Last edited by Diver on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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astonio
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by astonio » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:43 am

Rokiisun: Look at the tips. The ones without a point have been spent (fired). The two visible rounds with points are 'live' ammunition.
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:29 am

Diver wrote:
astonio wrote:This is from the Brooklyn sewer. The 8 shells are within the pistol holder's strap. So, from what I can see, I show 8 shells and two live rounds.

Am I mistaken? :?

From what I can see, 3 of the shells are partially covered by the strap and it is impossible to tell whether they have been fired or not.
Then you need to look again. The strap is clearly against the ground. There are only 2 bullets where you can't see the actual hole but if athye were live rounds the strap would be sitting on the bullet tips. The bullet protrudes quite far from the case. You can look at the live rounds to judge how far and see that the strap would be on them not the ground.

The criem lab tested the 8 spent shells. They kept track of all the live rounds recovered and accounted for them all including the 20 live rounds they used for testing. That is why th enumber of live rounds remaining after the testing are 20 less than those taken into inventory. If this is an endeavor to say maybe they added an extra round and staged things then you have further exposed that Ryan has no evidence at all just wild conspiracy claims.

In the meantime at trial they explored what DeFeo told psychologists about why he dumped the evidence there. He said to tidy up the scene he didn't like the mess and also didn't want to leave evidence behind that would help police figure out what kind of gun was used and be able to easily tie it to his gun. Asked why he put all the items ogether instead of spreading them all over he said he put them there while he decided what to do. That is telling and also contradicts Ryan's theoreis about some evidence being disposed of elsewhere.

It answers the question of why he didn't toss everything in the water. If he tossed it in the water and didn't blab no way they would have found anything. They certainly would not have searched every ounce of the canal bottom including the mouth feeding into the sea which is where the rifle was. That actually says something too tha the decided to throw the rifle nea rthe sea not closer.

What is telling is that he planned to return to the sewer when he decided what he wanted to do with things. This suggests maybe he planned ot keep the holster and bag and that is why he didn't toss them in the ocean. Maybe he wanted to keep the casings as souvenirs as well if he could think of a good place to store them for good. Someone who wanted to get rid of them for sure would have tossed them in the water somewhere. Not doing so and his comments suggests he had the possible intention of keeping them.

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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:26 am

So let's recap, shall we? At this point it appears that there is absolutely no proof that there were 8 spent shells in the sewer, other than the forensics report that was created AFTER the police had decided to pursue a "single gun" prosecution strategy. Anyone can tell by looking at the picture shown that it could very well be that the sewer contained 7 spent shells, and 3 live ones. Or even 5 spent shells and 5 live ones. What is certain is that there are not 8 spent shells in that picture. The 8th spent shell could have very easily been created by the very same crime lab that created the evidence used to falsely convict Martin Tankleff of murder, only to see him freed by the Governor 17 long years later. Of course, if anyone has a picture that clearly shows 8 spent shells prior to the crime lab tampering with the evidence I will gladly reconsider my position. Naturally, if you need me to wait for your movie to come out to view the evidence, I understand.
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:39 am

Diver wrote:So let's recap, shall we? At this point it appears that there is absolutely no proof that there were 8 spent shells in the sewer, other than the forensics report that was created AFTER the police had decided to pursue a "single gun" prosecution strategy. Anyone can tell by looking at the picture shown that it could very well be that the sewer contained 7 spent shells, and 3 live ones. Or even 5 spent shells and 5 live ones. What is certain is that there are not 8 spent shells in that picture. The 8th spent shell could have very easily been created by the very same crime lab that created the evidence used to falsely convict Martin Tankleff of murder, only to see him freed by the Governor 17 long years later. Of course, if anyone has a picture that clearly shows 8 spent shells prior to the crime lab tampering with the evidence I will gladly reconsider my position. Naturally, if you need me to wait for your movie to come out to view the evidence, I understand.

Like I said you have no crediblity at all and have no clue what evidence means. you have given away that Ryan is approaching this by claiming police manufactured evidence. He has no evidence of that just worhtless allegations and thes eallegations you consider proof.

The photos are evidence of what they found and contrary to your claims show 8 expended casings, 2 unfired rounds and ammunition boxes.

After taking the photos the police who collected the evidence logged in what they collected. The log records and testimony of the police who collected the evidence is evidence that 8 shell casings were found.

Item 75 is the 8 spent casings found in the storm drain:

Item 76 is the 2 unfired rounds found in the drain

Image

The technician who tested the shell casings is not the person who collected them so you are calling this a conspiracy among numerous police personnel without a shred of evidence to call their claims into question.


The 9/11 Conspiracy theory crowd are about the only fools who will fall for this kind of nonsense.

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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:48 am

Diver wrote:So let's recap, shall we? At this point it appears that there is absolutely no proof that there were 8 spent shells in the sewer, other than the forensics report that was created AFTER the police had decided to pursue a "single gun" prosecution strategy. Anyone can tell by looking at the picture shown that it could very well be that the sewer contained 7 spent shells, and 3 live ones. Or even 5 spent shells and 5 live ones. What is certain is that there are not 8 spent shells in that picture. The 8th spent shell could have very easily been created by the very same crime lab that created the evidence used to falsely convict Martin Tankleff of murder, only to see him freed by the Governor 17 long years later. Of course, if anyone has a picture that clearly shows 8 spent shells prior to the crime lab tampering with the evidence I will gladly reconsider my position. Naturally, if you need me to wait for your movie to come out to view the evidence, I understand.
Oh and by the way what evidence did the crime lab manufacture against Tankleff?

He was ordered to be given a new trial because an Appeals Court decided his confession was not voluntary and should have been excluded and thus ordered a new trial with the confession excluded.

Facts clearly are something beyond you.

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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:49 am

Nice paperwork created 8 days after the "evidence" was recovered...
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Diver wrote:Nice paperwork created 8 days after the "evidence" was recovered...
Your attitude proves you are simply a shill and have no evidence of anything. You simply don't want to believe the evidence though you have nothing to refute it.

We shoudl believe the Sgt Klug lied that those on scene all lied and the lab fired an extra shell to get the casing and pretend 8 were recovered.

Why shoudl we believe this? Because otherwise your conspiracy claims can't possibly hold any water.

If such a grant conspiracy why not substitute all the bullet with clear bullets linked to the rifle as well?

If you you have is wild conspiracy claims you have nothing at all.

The records and testimony of the officers who collected it, logged it and the lab that tested is are all evidence whether you want to admit it or not. Your refusal to admit the fact it is evidence doesn't change a thing.

You are on record falsely accusing the lab of manufacturing evidence in a the Tankleff case and claiming this manufacturing of evidence that exists only in your mind suggests they manufactured evidence in this case.

What proof do you have that you didn't plant the gun you claim you found?

You have no evidence you didn't plan it just your word which isn't worth much.

I would not take anywhere near as much conspiracy for you to plant a gun or Ryan to have someone else plant it and it would for all the cops to get together to frame DeFeo.

Why should you be believed? What actual evidence do you have? Do you have video showing the actual digging the hole you cliam you dug to prove it was on the very bottom of the canal and covered by all the sediment? If not then by your own standard you have no evidence.

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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Diver » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:15 pm

Whiteout. Turn the "22" into a "14". You're welcome...
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Re: 8 Expended Shells

Post by Victoria Principles » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:22 pm

Diver wrote:Nice paperwork created 8 days after the "evidence" was recovered...

The black helicopters needed to go out and get a fresh supply of paper and typerwriter ribbons. That is why there is a delay between the time the evidence was submitted and the report was typed out.

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