Some more about ballistics

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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scipio-USMC
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Some more about ballistics

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:11 pm

Since in the future Ryan will be bringing up ballistics issues more I decided to help people understand the issue better by having more knowledge. Especially since hand notes that may not be complete and might have only very general things might be posted as opposed to all records because everything could harm his claims. In fact if he had any integrity he would post and discuss all testimony at trial concerning the ballistic issues. He hasn't addressed court testimony at all, likely because it only damages his claims.

A gun either has a smoothbore barrel or rifled barrel. Rifling in a barrel makes a projectile spin thus increasing accuracy and range. Think about how much further a spiraling football will go and how much accurately than one that wobbles. Rifling is also referred to as channeling. Spiral cuts in the barrels are grooves. The part that is not cut is called lands. The rifling spirals and thus is turned either in a clockwise pattern or counter-clockwise. This is called the twist or sometimes hand twist. So left twist or left hand twist or twist to the left all mean the same thing the rifling is counter clockwise. Any of these to the right means clockwise. There will be a specific number of channels or cuts aka grooves. All guns of the same kind will have have the same number of channels going in the same direction and the lands and grooves will all be the same distance wide and apart. These are referred to as the general rifling characteristics of a firearm or are commonly referred to as the class characteristics. The individual characterstics are other marks that a particular gun and only that exact gun will leave whereas all guns of the same type will leave the class characteristics.

Here is a drawing of an inside barrel showing the rifling:


Image

you can see the grooves turn and that in between these channels are raised portions called the lands. The width and spce between each can be measured with a micrometer. These are very small distances that are being determined as different when measuring the lands and grooves on bullets fired from different guns. The rifling can be very similar and not different by much.

Even though the rifling can be so similar say between a .357 Magum and 38 revovlers by the same company the .357 round can't be fired in a 38 revolver so the caliber of the bullet is important as an initial consideration.

This Shattered Hopes Webpage shows a purported notepage from Detective DellaPenna about Item 38. We don't know if the note contained more informtaion or not. It simply gives the grain of the bullet (170) and then the number of lands and grooves and the direction. It doesn't give any measurements of the width of the lands and grooves so is incomplete.

http://www.amityvillefilm.com/Discovery ... 20gun.html

A Marlin RIfle does indeed have 12 lands and groove with a right twist.

What about the .38 special revolvers out there in 1974 or Python .357?

All Colt revolvers including the Python- 6 channels to the left

Ruger and S&W revolvers (and foreign clones)- 5 channels to the right

Charter Arms- 8 channels to the right

Anything more than 8 channels is assuredly a very large caliber handgun or rifle.

Remember this when you see what Eivdnece he is trying to put forth to claim the marks on bullet 33 had to be from a 38.

If he actually had a ballistics expert analyze photos he claims he has of all the bullets and measure anything he can provide a more narrow breakdown of the exact brand and models of 38 guns that could produce grooves and channels of such quantity, direction, and widths. Moreover he would need something to indicate the caliber was different than 35 as DellaPenna found.

Another issue is the brand and type of bullets. This can be determined by site and also checmical composition which can even tie bullets to the same batch. The very core will be lead but layers of over metals cover jacketed bullets. There is penty to investigate when it comes to bullet sin general and I am simplifying things. Thus anyone who just reads some note and has not really seen the evidence or asked about eveyrthing that was done including not bothering to look at all the testimony and ideally interview the tester has not done their homework in the least.

scipio-USMC
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Re: Some more about ballistics

Post by scipio-USMC » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:10 pm

I left out Taurus which are 6 channels to the right.

Most H&R are also 6 channels to the right some are 5.

Again the H&R found does not fire 38 special rounds it fires .38 S&W rounds which is a black powder round and thus very distinctive.

Ryan of course will not address that at all.

In fact it is outrageou to say he found the gun he was looking for when he was searching for a .357 Colt python or blued snubnose and instead came up with a topebreak .38 S&W that clearly was tossed because it was broken garbage.

It's like looking for an M-16 and accepting a 22 caiiber pellet rifle and saying you found what you were searching for.

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: Some more about ballistics

Post by sherbetbizarre » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:33 am

Here's how Ric Osuna describes Item #33
The Night The DeFeos Died wrote:Item #33 – Expanded bullet from box spring of victim(Louise DeFeo) second floor bedroom.

This particular item in the lab reports was probably the most significant to prove that Butch DeFeo was not the only shooter. Although the police insisted that this bullet came from the Marlin rifle, the microscopic test results read, “Failed to display a sufficient quantity of identifying striae to ascertain if it had been fired in item “82 [the .35 caliber Marlin rifle].” After a bullet is fired from a gun, it will have striae, which are the channels or grooves made from the barrel. This was obviously the bullet fired from Bobby Kelske’s Colt Python.

According to the affidavits signed by Roger and Linnea Nonnewitz, Suffolk County Detective Dennis Rafferty came to their house during the investigation to inquire about a .38 caliber handgun, and to see if Butch had ever been seen with one. Since Kelske’s handgun was a Colt Python, it could fire both .357 Magnum and .38 special caliber bullets. But the police wanted to connect Butch with his own .38 caliber handgun.

According to Siegfried’s motion, Suffolk County Detective Sergeant Ernest Klug was approached by Steven Hicks during the late hours of November 13, 1974. The motion stated, “Sgt. Klug on 11-13-14-74, makes a report to homicide to detain Robert Kelske. He has obtained information from Steven Hicks ...that Robert Kelske showed him a Colt Python revolver. Sgt. Klug’s reports Robert Kelske, the second suspect, did a good job of dodging around the questions.”

scipio-USMC
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Re: Some more about ballistics

Post by scipio-USMC » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:12 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:Here's how Ric Osuna describes Item #33
The Night The DeFeos Died wrote:Item #33 – Expanded bullet from box spring of victim(Louise DeFeo) second floor bedroom.

This particular item in the lab reports was probably the most significant to prove that Butch DeFeo was not the only shooter. Although the police insisted that this bullet came from the Marlin rifle, the microscopic test results read, “Failed to display a sufficient quantity of identifying striae to ascertain if it had been fired in item “82 [the .35 caliber Marlin rifle].” After a bullet is fired from a gun, it will have striae, which are the channels or grooves made from the barrel. This was obviously the bullet fired from Bobby Kelske’s Colt Python.

According to the affidavits signed by Roger and Linnea Nonnewitz, Suffolk County Detective Dennis Rafferty came to their house during the investigation to inquire about a .38 caliber handgun, and to see if Butch had ever been seen with one. Since Kelske’s handgun was a Colt Python, it could fire both .357 Magnum and .38 special caliber bullets. But the police wanted to connect Butch with his own .38 caliber handgun.

According to Siegfried’s motion, Suffolk County Detective Sergeant Ernest Klug was approached by Steven Hicks during the late hours of November 13, 1974. The motion stated, “Sgt. Klug on 11-13-14-74, makes a report to homicide to detain Robert Kelske. He has obtained information from Steven Hicks ...that Robert Kelske showed him a Colt Python revolver. Sgt. Klug’s reports Robert Kelske, the second suspect, did a good job of dodging around the questions.”
A colt Python has a left twist not right so the fact it is right rules out a python regardless of how many lands and grooves could actually be observed.

Moreover the same report clearly states that item 33 is part fo a Western CO. .35 claiber cartridge and that it was fired from a Marlin rifle . The report merely states it could not be proved he fired it from Ron's Marlin rifle.

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