Ryan's Magnificent Six documents

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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sherbetbizarre
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Ryan's Magnificent Six documents

Post by sherbetbizarre » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:56 am

Ryan Katzenbach wrote:Thsi is not one document, this is not two documents, this is like, half a dozen documents, and various crime scene photos, that support the thesis that there was a second gun used in the commission of this crime.
- Eye On New York, CBS.

And these are being held back, presumably until Part III of Shattered Hopes.

He makes out showing them now will undermine his documentary, as if these are what everyone is waiting to see.

Rubbish, I say. Just like Ric Osuna and Tracey DeFeo before him, he's most likely reading into them what he wants to. And I contend these documents will be next to useless, and only have meaning when woven into his fabricated story.

Therefore, showing them - and having someone else debunk them now - will render his claims useless.

And this is what he is scared of. Sure, they can still be debunked once the doc is out, but by then he'll have some confidence after he's bashed them into his over-arcing narrative, which, on the surface, will appear to fit.

And then he'll be gone. He gives every indication he won't be sticking around for the fallout - having sold off SH to the lucky folk comprising Amityville Holdings Inc. Then announcing his next documentary project way, way ahead of time.

He'll catch some Shattered glory now, then flee, while the rest of the world picks at its rotting carcass...


So, summing up... can these six unseen documents save his ass? And save Shattered Hopes?

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Howard64
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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by Howard64 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:59 am

You know at one point in time, I was only shown ONE page of "evidence",
perhaps the only reason anyone was shown one page was out of fear
of it being debunked?

I was told it was due to the fact that a trusted person betrayed someone
when it concerned information that was meant to be kept confidential.

This makes sense now. Thanks Sherb.
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

scipio-USMC
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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:40 pm

If the documents would actually hold up to scrutiny he would relase them now and use that to entice people to actually buy his movie. He indeed knows they won't. He just hopes people will watch the acocunt and not look for evidence to actually back up the protrayal he shows.

If I ever debated him on one of his lame podcasts he would end up crying by the end. He is basically a child masquerading as a researcher.

Indeed, in his latest interview he cliamed these documents were obtained in 2010. But his conspiracy claims wellpredated that so he basically admitted that his conspiracy claims were not founded on evidence and in 2010 is when he went picking to try to find evidence to prove his assertions.

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Howard64
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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by Howard64 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:54 pm

I have not dealt with Ryan in any way. Quite frankly I do not feel the
need to, he is doing a good enough job as it is of taking care of himself
without me adding to it.

As far as Ronnie is concerned, he is where he needs to be, in jail and paying
for his crimes. It is just sad that some who would believe him would start
up groups to fight for a form of innocence that does not exist.

I truly feel that there was only ONE person there on that night and he acted
on his own motives. He is guilty of killing his family and is serving time. He will
have to account for himself on judgement day.
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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Rokiisun
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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by Rokiisun » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:06 pm

Howard64 wrote:I have not dealt with Ryan in any way. Quite frankly I do not feel the
need to, he is doing a good enough job as it is of taking care of himself
without me adding to it.

As far as Ronnie is concerned, he is where he needs to be, in jail and paying
for his crimes. It is just sad that some who would believe him would start
up groups to fight for a form of innocence that does not exist.

I truly feel that there was only ONE person there on that night and he acted
on his own motives. He is guilty of killing his family and is serving time. He will
have to account for himself on judgement day.
That's very true. I too believe that he was the only person there in the
house that night with his family and it was he alone who shot them all,
regardless of whether he had a motive or not.

As for his judgement day in 500 years time,
I still think he'll try and lie his way out of it.
It is better to return a borrowed pot with a little something you last cooked in it.

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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:18 pm

Rokiisun wrote:
Howard64 wrote:I have not dealt with Ryan in any way. Quite frankly I do not feel the
need to, he is doing a good enough job as it is of taking care of himself
without me adding to it.

As far as Ronnie is concerned, he is where he needs to be, in jail and paying
for his crimes. It is just sad that some who would believe him would start
up groups to fight for a form of innocence that does not exist.

I truly feel that there was only ONE person there on that night and he acted
on his own motives. He is guilty of killing his family and is serving time. He will
have to account for himself on judgement day.
That's very true. I too believe that he was the only person there in the
house that night with his family and it was he alone who shot them all,
regardless of whether he had a motive or not.

As for his judgement day in 500 years time,
I still think he'll try and lie his way out of it.
He obviously had a motive. His motive was he was sick of his family and either was motivated by the desire for their money as well or simply saw that as a bonus.

The ones with no motive would be Bobby Kelske or any other friends

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astonio
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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by astonio » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:53 pm

Wow. I don't think anyone has had the guts to come out and state his motive so plain before. It's been my belief as well his motive was simple hate for his family and the money being the bonus. When he confessed to Det. Rafferty and Dunn, he relished in his family's individual murders.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:44 pm

astonio wrote:Wow. I don't think anyone has had the guts to come out and state his motive so plain before. It's been my belief as well his motive was simple hate for his family and the money being the bonus. When he confessed to Det. Rafferty and Dunn, he relished in his family's individual murders.
Even before he confessed he trashed his family. He said his mom was a lousy cook, his brothers pigs...

That he was trashing them right after their deaths says volumes. Even people who hate someone usually are not so cavalier right after their death and express sympathy. Add to that the incident where he tried to shoot his father with a shotgun and it doesn't even take all that much for him to snap and decide to go for it.

Evidence he was planning it though came from Kelske who said Ron was trying to get a hold of a silencer. I have a number of weapons and have never considered trying to get a sound suppressor, the only potential use for the average person one is diabolical.

Ron was a bum mooching off his parents. I am sure money played some role in it whether it was him caught stealing from them, fighing over them giving more money to him and so forth.

He clearly must have been considering it for some time. His final confession version featured him watching TV and then going up to his room getting his gun, going to his parents room and then taking them out and then Allison, the boys and Dawn. There was some thought for some time that didn't just happen on a whim to suddenly go do it. The timing might or might not have been planned it might have been a whim to do it that particular night but the idea to kill them was not simply a whim it was clearly thought about for a while.

With respect to the him reveling in the murders, th epolice interviewing him did indeed say his eyes lit up as he was describing them being killed and even included tidits like John's foot twitching- details only the killer could possibly have seen.

It is easier o kill someone for their money when you don't like them so the money angle can't be discounted.

The way Ron tried to discount the money angle was to say there was still some money in the house tha the didn't take and would have taken had that been his motive plus his granparents got everything. My response to that is:

A) The only reason his grandparents got everything was because he was convicted. He had no way to know he would be convicted and not receive a dime. By law killers are not permitted to inherit and thus prosper from their crime. They are considered to have predeceased their parents. When parents die together their issue (children and/or grandchildren inherit everything) but if they have no issue left then their parents get everything. As the only surviving issue Ron would have received everything but his conviction resulte din him being considered to have predeceased his parents and thus the grandparents got it.

B) SInce Ron expected that he would get everything including the house, there was no reason to take every dime hidden around the house and hide it somewhere else.

Part A also explains something else. If Stephanie were in fact Ron's kid that would mean there would have been issue for the estate to go to instead of to the grandparents. Right there was a monetary motive for Stephanie and Geraldine to go along with Ron's lies and pretend she was his kid. Knowing what we do about Geraldine is there ANY doubt at all that she would have stepped forward and tried to claim the estate for her daughter in 1975? The mom ALLEGEDLY telling her to stop being his wife didn't stop her from attending the funeral according to her or helping prepare his criminal defense case so why would it stop her from claiming the inheritance?

I could spend a year pointing out every inconsistency and claim that makes no sense and another year posting evidence to prove their nonsense impossible. That is the sheer volume of nonsense at play.

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Rokiisun
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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by Rokiisun » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:31 pm

scipio-USMC wrote: Part A also explains something else. If Stephanie were in fact Ron's kid that would mean there would have been issue for the estate to go to instead of to the grandparents. Right there was a monetary motive for Stephanie and Geraldine to go along with Ron's lies and pretend she was his kid.
Absolute agreement 100%

Kelske has an idea a crime is going to be commited because Ronnie lets Kelske in on his ideas.
However, because Ronnie is notorious at lying, even back then, I'm guessing that Kelske
did not take him seriously.

Because Kelske also helped with some of the constructions in the Defeo garden he surely
had a good relationship with Ronnie's family. If he had any concern that Ronnie was
being serious, Kelske (in my opinion) would have said something.

The only other grounds I can think of where Kelske wouldn't say anything is if he was being blackmailed by Ronnie.

Another thing...

John's foot moving. I remember the crime scene photographs showing the boys' bed covers being right
down to their feet. If Ronnie indeed did see John's foot moving, couldn't this be used as supporting
evidence into the theory that one or both brothers got up out of bed that night or is that idea too
far fetched?
It is better to return a borrowed pot with a little something you last cooked in it.

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Re: Ryan's Magnificant Six documents

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:42 pm

Rokiisun wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote: Part A also explains something else. If Stephanie were in fact Ron's kid that would mean there would have been issue for the estate to go to instead of to the grandparents. Right there was a monetary motive for Stephanie and Geraldine to go along with Ron's lies and pretend she was his kid.
Absolute agreement 100%

Kelske has an idea a crime is going to be commited because Ronnie lets Kelske in on his ideas.
However, because Ronnie is notorious at lying, even back then, I'm guessing that Kelske
did not take him seriously.

Because Kelske also helped with some of the constructions in the Defeo garden he surely
had a good relationship with Ronnie's family. If he had any concern that Ronnie was
being serious, Kelske (in my opinion) would have said something.

The only other grounds I can think of where Kelske wouldn't say anything is if he was being blackmailed by Ronnie.

Another thing...

John's foot moving. I remember the crime scene photographs showing the boys' bed covers being right
down to their feet. If Ronnie indeed did see John's foot moving, couldn't this be used as supporting
evidence into the theory that one or both brothers got up out of bed that night or is that idea too
far fetched?
You can see a foot move from under covers. Based on the location at the end of the bed you will know the movement is from a foot as opposed to the hand.

As for Kelske I can't say what he suspected or didn't suspect. Given the criminal things they were into, he could easily have thought the silencer could have been desired for a different crime than killing the family. It is not as if Ron hadn't been involved in robberies before. Moreove,r if he did suspect it then he would not have been likely to mention it to police. He seemed genuinely surpised that Ron did it or he probably would have kept quiet about the silencer and guns. He ESPECIALLY would have kept quiet had he actually took part in the crime as Ryan alleges. If he helped commit the crime he would not want Ron caught because Ron might confess and rat him out. The last thing he would want would be to implicate Ron have Ron get wind of it and turn on him.

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Ryan's Magnificent Six documents

Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:37 pm

I always imagined that the murders were ignited by the allegedly-faked payroll theft 2 weeks prior. Perhaps his father was about to turn him in. Ronnie was already on parole for a previous crime, so maybe this meant a mandatory prison sentence. Or maybe Ronnie felt he would be in trouble with the mob for stealing from his grandfather's business?

Whichever, I always thought that Ronnie felt he was trapped in a corner. With seemingly no way out, I think his mind just snapped, feeling he must silence his father in any way possible. I don't think he was thinking rationally at all -- not thinking that there would be 5 witnesses to his crime. And I think that all changed when his mother woke up (possibly screaming at seeing her husband shot next to her). I think he shot her next just to stop the screams. Then I think he had no other choice but to kill the rest of his family so that there would be no witnesses.

I don't think it was planned in advance. I think it was the act of a stupid and desperate man who was not in his right mind (no, not possessed)...

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Re: Ryan's Magnificent Six documents

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:56 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:I always imagined that the murders were ignited by the allegedly-faked payroll theft 2 weeks prior. Perhaps his father was about to turn him in. Ronnie was already on parole for a previous crime, so maybe this meant a mandatory prison sentence. Or maybe Ronnie felt he would be in trouble with the mob for stealing from his grandfather's business?

Whichever, I always thought that Ronnie felt he was trapped in a corner. With seemingly no way out, I think his mind just snapped, feeling he must silence his father in any way possible. I don't think he was thinking rationally at all -- not thinking that there would be 5 witnesses to his crime. And I think that all changed when his mother woke up (possibly screaming at seeing her husband shot next to her). I think he shot her next just to stop the screams. Then I think he had no other choice but to kill the rest of his family so that there would be no witnesses.

I don't think it was planned in advance. I think it was the act of a stupid and desperate man who was not in his right mind (no, not possessed)...

On the one hand he was searching for a silencer before that incident so considering it anyway most likely plus tried to shoot his father rpeviously. Thus we can't be sure just what set him off that moment. You suspicions do have some support in the fact that the car dealership Some support from your theory comes from Lucy Burkin who said that Ron Sr planned to confront his son over the robbery on the night of the murders. For all we know his father told him to move out.

That conflicts with the story that Geraldine told of him living with her each night, how could he confront his son and how could they sometimes go to work together if his son had been living in NJ?

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Re: Ryan's Magnificent Six documents

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:12 pm

More about the chance Ron was being kicked out. kelske testified at trial that his father wante dhim out of the house. He said that Ron told him that his father suspected him in the robbery because he went out and bought $500-600 worth of clothing. But his father knew he only had a limited amount of money coming in and thus suspected he was behind the robbery to have that kind of cash. Steve Hick's testified about going to the hospital to visit Marc along with Ron, Tewksbury, Springer, and Sherry Klein (no Geraldine thus refuting her claims she was there). Ron Sr told Ron to leave he didn't want him there and told Hick's et all to do what they had to in orde rto get him to go even if they had to beat him. He testified that during a second visit his mother told him to get out. The fact they didn't want him around is significant and could indeed mean they were kicking him out and done with him.

There was also sognificant testimony about various acts fo violence where Ron pulled guns on his friends and even tried to beat his mother when she told him that instead of being out joyriding he should have been helping her around the house. The picture they painted was someone who would go off and snap.

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