Shattered Hopes Part II

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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AKA JH70
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by AKA JH70 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:28 am

He needs all the money he could get....wouldn't be a wise move to deny Amazon selling his "masterpiece"

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by Dan the Damned » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:45 am

I can kinda see where he's coming from. Amazon is kinda like WalMart -- they are both extremely powerful. Both outfits pride themselves on giving their customers big savings, and both outfits make these big savings happen at the expense of the product manufacturers/sellers.

There have been lots of investigative reports showing how WalMart gets involved with the sellers and has them create cheaper/inferior versions of their products to sell exclusively at their stores (enabling them to sell at a discounted price). I thin what Amazon does is simply pay less for the product from the suppliers and then pass along the savings to their customers. So Ryan would get less money by selling a DVD on Amazon than he would by selling it somewhere else.

But on the other hand, having your product listed on Amazon definitely leads to more sales, as his DVD could come up in the search results for other items.

All in all, I agree -- a huge mistake not selling via Amazon. Less profit margin, but more sales. Surely he's heard of the old adage, "we'll make it up in volume," meaning we'll drop our prices, but in the end we'll sell so many that we'll come away with bigger profits than we would if we had stuck to our original higher price.

Unless his DVDs are just not selling. Then it wouldn't matter. Maybe that's what's happening... :think:

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astonio
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by astonio » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:29 am

Got the DVD last night when I got home from work. Thanks Max.

Gotta carve time for review. I did pop it in last night but fell asleep on it. That's not to imply it wasn't engaging. In fact, up thru the six days layer after Ronnie was arrested and Geraldine was allowed to see him, there were little that disturbed me. Now after this, we run into the Geraldine story. I haven't finished it so I'd like to hold off.

...I'll be back.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by Brendan72 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:07 am

Dan the Damned wrote:Erased from where?
Erased from Amazon when he makes the review there ... apparently negative reviews are not encouraged by Ryan ... or tolerated so he removes them?
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by astonio » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:41 am

Ok....ready? Part 1 of my review of Part 2:

Gotta admit, the first part of Part 2 did hold my interest. Pretty much, it recounts the actual events that transpired from Ronnie running into the bar until he is taken to the precinct for questioning and/or "protection". However, there were two scenes within the first part that grabbed me as grossly inaccurate or not needed during the first part of the film. They were, Geraldine and the mishap surrounding the Brigantes arrival timeframe to the house. Geraldine short part during this retelling was an obvious hold over from Part 1. Considering she was/is heavily saturated in Part 1, to begin with the actual account of the murders and investigation, it would seem weird to not have her included, but the problem with her inclusion is that you can tell it's lies/untruths. It's in her body language and also in her self affirmation via nodding to herself at the conclusion of her statements. Again, this is ONLY the beginning of the Part 2. I'll move onto her explanations further in subsequent review posts. Another ish completely wrong was the film cites the Brigantes as arriving to the scene at 7:20 PM, which is impossible from Brooklyn and can only be attributed to one who does not live in the metro NYC area (not to mention Geraldine's break neck speed from NJ to Amityville in an hour's time). As Max has pointed out from trial testimony (which I cannot understand how Ryan glosses over this admission), Mr. Brigante explained watching Adam-12 when he got the call which aired in the evening (7 or 8?). It would take him from about an hour and a half to an hour and 45 min at minimum to reach Ocean Ave, so his time of arrival brings him closer to 9 PM and further, Ryan does not mention Mrs. Brigante arriving with her husband and son.

Another thing that grabbed my attention was the sad recounting of the DeFeo service from that lady (not looking her name up...but you did see her in Part 1...Gloria, I believe). She gave a descriptive account of the service and I have to admit, it was more than believable. She mentions none of the DeFeos looked liked themselves with possible exception to Marc because Marc's crutches were with him in his coffin (sad). Gloria's son and Mr. Nonnewitz...both duds. They really provide NOTHING. They echo one another. I laughed at how each of them, including Gloria, all began with "someone, can't remember who, told me they were all dead...". Back to back.

Dr. Adelman...I used to really admire and respect...same for Greguski, but they seem to grandstand because they are in front of the cameras. They embellish, do not appropriately recall and I see too easily the stardust in their eyes.

Ryan, again, provides narrative to an unseen "host". If he just set up his camcorder and hit record and just begins speaking...smh. HOWEVER, he wasn't like he was in the Part 1...again, this is not a complete review of Part 2...just the coverage of the murders and investigation.

The reenactments were "better", not "great"...but better. Not so much the dialogue, but I appreciated the little things. The actress who plays Dawn and the actor who plays Ronnie...I could pick up their efforts to use a Long Island accent and it was convincing. There was a scene reenacting Kelske's involvement in the murders when he shoots Mrs. DeFeo a second time. Something about this scene made no sense whatsoever. So they have Mr. DeFeo coming toward Dawn, Bobby and Ronnie after Dawn shoots Mr. DeFeo first that just could not have happened that way. Forensics would have picked up if any of the bodies bled out on the floor and Mr. DeFeo's wounds do not coincide with that scenario. Also, the manner in which Mrs. DeFeo is shot in bed isn't how it went actually went down. The actress raises from her sleep lying face up which isn't how Mrs. DeFeo was killed.

About this point in the film, I continued to drift off to sleep. The DVD would act up so I'm gonna use another player tonight to try and get through it. It is long. From what I can tell, the film from this point forward recreates Geraldine's story, so my interest would drop off because it's really hard to have the beginning of the film say it's a true story and then come to this point of the story which I know is completely untrue.

Allow me to get through the rest and I will be back to continue my review.

FYI...damn me for saying this, but having purchased Part 1...you would 'benefit' in viewing Part 2 for the continuation of Ryan's story....Part 2 being about a full "star" more in point value from Part 1.

Stay tuned....I'll be back.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by sherbetbizarre » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:27 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:Yeah, but I thought I read at one point him saying he would sell it on Amazon at a later date -- and/or stream it via Amazon at a later date.
But anyone can access it on Amazon - how will he keep an eye on who's purchasing it? ;)
SHATTERED HOPES: THE TRUE STORY OF THE AMITYVILLE MURDERS wrote:we're working on a cloud based server off our website to handle the on-demand, but its taking a while longer than anticipated to get it up and running. But stay tuned....

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by sherbetbizarre » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:58 am

Firstly, a word about the insert - the extract from his ":) silly dilly :) of Hollywood" memoirs - it's exactly the ego wankathon I was hoping it would be. Katzenbach striding around Suffolk County PD like he's on a mission to solve the case, and thinking everyone should just drop what they are doing to accommodate him... brilliant... and Ed Asner is going to narrate all this for a talking book? Yikes!

So, I watched an hour of Part II last night. more than I planned, which is testament to Ryan's claim this one zips along more than Part 1. However the opening 10-15 minutes are a frenetic mess - I've heard this story 100 times but I was lost on who was at the house, who discovered which bodies, as everything is clipped and choppy.

Things calm down when Nonnewitz and the Gangitano's recount how they first heard about the murders, and this section is quite moving, but is undone when Geraldine weighs in with her own account and subsequent arrival at the crime scene, backed up by Ryan himself, making a mockery of his claim that you can "take or leave" her...

So on-camera the director backs her all the way, but off-camera he says it's up to us... great :roll:

Also, when Butch's grandfathers arrive at the scene, Ryan overlays the matching police logs of their arrival... but at no point is "DeFeo's wife" listed as arriving, not even in the :) flower :)-ton of paperwork he was accidentally given that no-one was meant to see.

And once again Katzenbach makes no attempt to keep Geraldine's story straight. In this, Gerri tells of her neighbor saying "your whole family is dead, it's all over the news!". But back in The Night The DeFeo's Died it wasn't so clear-cut-
Ric Osuna wrote:Earlier in the evening, Geraldine DeFeo had been told by a neighbor that the late TV news was reporting a mass murder in Amityville. Concerned over Dawn’s attempted stabbing of Big Ronnie the previous night, she had the neighbor watch her children while she proceeded to Amityville.
:roll:

But the real problem is Ryan himself, popping up every minute (it seems) to keep the narrative flowing, sometimes at the expense of people who were actually there! The real loser is Det. Gerard Gozaloff, who had a weird few seconds cameo in Part 1 and gets the same treatment here - he barely utters one sentence at a time before Katzenbach cuts away. Maybe he was a bad interviewee. Maybe Katzenbach doesn't like him because he thinks he's lying. Or maybe Katzenbach had to cut around the bits which didn't fit his timeline.

Joel Martin retells his "first reporter on the scene" story, and adds he knew one of the officers guarding 112, who turned a blind-eye and let him inside, yet Katzenbach never asks where or what he saw once he was in there. (It's worth pointing out Rick Moran also claimed to be one of the first reporters there, and also knew an officer who let him inside (the day after). But only told this story late in his life... did he steal it all from Martin?

Towards the end of the hour Katzenbach dramatizes the version of the crime Butch allegedly told Geraldine back in 1974, and Ric in 2000 (despite many variants inbetween!) yet this is again different to The Night The DeFeo's Died! The two young brothers are again absent from the film, and Katzenbach does not have Dawn firing a gun into a car out in the driveway! One of the more ludicrous bits by Ric he had "cleaned up" here...

Two other points - The editing when Kelske shoots the mother, drops the gun, then runs downstairs is hilarious - and playing the jolly "The Night Chicago Died" when Ronnie and Dawn tussle with the gun is borderline parody.

At one point Butch needs to jump in his car and track down Kelske to help him put his father back in bed (who is dead on the floor) This is to "make it look like a botched robbery" - but at no point does Katzenbach explain why this needs to be. If DeFeo Snr. is found dead on the floor, why is this suddenly NOT the result of a botched a robbery?

Even poor Ed Asner has to narrate this piece of nonsense!

Let's leave the last word with Katzenbach, who at 57 minutes says:
Ryan Katzenbach wrote:According to the interview that Butch gave to Ric Osuna, he and Bobby Kelske went about, sometime in the early morning hours of November 13th, 1974, cleaning up the crime scene and collecting up various evidence and getting that stuff out of the DeFeo house.
In The Night The DeFeo's Died this happens in the afternoon - in broad daylight!

Another stupid decision by Ric, corrected to the more plausible middle-of-the-night scenario by Katzenbach... but is a red flag, highlighting what a load of :) silly dilly :) they are trying to sell.

:roll:

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by kathyM » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:25 am

just wondering, can this whole story showing kelske doing all this be shown without his family's knowledge or approval? Kelske was never arrested or shown to be involved by the police was he?

Couldnt this open a huge can of worms with Kelske's family?

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Rokiisun
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by Rokiisun » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:04 pm

I read somewhere a few pages back that Ronnie came into Dawn's bedroom
to find her about to call her boyfriend on the phone. Was there even a phone
in Dawn's bedroom? I don't recall seeing one in the crime scene photographs...

Also, Kathy, you are right that Kelske's surviving relatives may have
an issue with the documentary. However, what if they do not come forward
to express their voices? Wouldn't this give Ryan cause to assume that they
are not coming forward because they know it's 'true' that Kelske was an accomplice.
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by kathyM » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:59 pm

Yeah, he probably would think that. Good thing nobody besides a few people have even heard of this documentary. I dont think the remaining DaFeo family members would be too happy with this doc either.

I dont remember a phone in there either Rokiisun.

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by msmart112 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:39 pm

Rokiisun wrote:I read somewhere a few pages back that Ronnie came into Dawn's bedroom
to find her about to call her boyfriend on the phone. Was there even a phone
in Dawn's bedroom? I don't recall seeing one in the crime scene photographs...
kathyM wrote:I dont remember a phone in there either Rokiisun.
Image
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by kathyM » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:06 am

Hey, it is not even a red phone!

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by kathyM » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:58 am

Rokiisun, you must have been looking at the crime scene photos from the photo gallery that were on the night the DeFeos died website, same as me. This pic wasnt on there.

Where did you find that pic MSmart?

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Rokiisun
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by Rokiisun » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:40 am

That's true Kathy, that's where I found the crime scene photographs too - the night the Defeo's died
Website. I haven't seen the photograph of the clock and phone beside it before, or maybe it's because
I never looked at the crime scene photographs more than once or twice to fully remember/notice.
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by Amityville Rock » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:45 pm

After watching this latest bit of "investigation" I have , what might be, a stupid question. Why isn't Bobby Kelske's son suing Ryan, Ric & co for slander? :fp:
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Dan the Damned
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by Dan the Damned » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:07 pm

Because you can't legally slander the dead.

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Brendan72
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by Brendan72 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:10 pm

kathyM wrote:Hey, it is not even a red phone!
Bat phone?
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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by kathyM » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:18 am

Yeah, lol! No, I was talking about the red phones that Ronnie said his dad would call on to check on his wife as to where she was and what she was doing. Since the color scheme in the whole house seemed to be red, maybe the phones were just that matching color but I guess this photo proves that wrong.

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by sherbetbizarre » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:01 am

Shat Hopes II is low on the revelations Katzenbach promised. The two standouts are: DellaPenna's bullet report where he examines five retrieved slugs, measuring size, shape and weight. Item #33 (from Louise) is, according to this report, a smaller fragment which weighs the same as the others. Katzenbach concludes it was therefore from a heavier bullet, consistent with being from a handgun.

But no expert is consulted on this.

Det. Gerard Gozaloff says Sullivan made "another unit within the homicide squad, that was going to try a different tact" and search for Ronnie's accomplices in a "Manson type thing".

Mike Race asks, "So Sullivan actually thought there were other people involved?"

Gerard Gozaloff: "Yes"

And then we cut to something else. Katzenbach gets his confirmation and moves on. Gozaloff is not pressed on details, but later, during Gozaloff's search for the rifle in the water, Katzenbach questions his timeline.

Could Sullivan have set this squad up to disprove more than one killer? To head off claims by Weber? And what action did this squad ever take?

Nonnowitz says police interviewed his wife, asking about "the other gun", but this was well before Sullivan came on the scene.

Before this, Katzenbach claims evidence was fabricated or dismissed because:
Ryan Katzenbach wrote:They locked their targets on Butch right from the start.
So why are they asking Nonnowitz about "another gun" then? Which, anyway, does not prove they knew someone else was involved, despite Katzenbach telling the audience:

[quote=""Ryan Katzenach"]They were very specific as to why they thought another gun was involved.[/quote]
1: Nonnowitz does not say this (and if he did, I'd rather hear it from him).

2: If true, then the Police had not "locked their targets on Butch right from the start."

Katzenbach is lost in his own lies.

Elsewhere, Katzenbach tells us the Police are trying to beat a confession out of Kelske! So which is it?

Katzenbach starts to get agitated in this installment. Staring straight into camera at times to emphasize a point. A clip of Judge Stark saying Sullivan never "Judge-shopped" him is followed by an irate Katzenbach literally screaming ":) silly dilly :)!" - ever the impartial documentarian...

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by sherbetbizarre » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:59 pm

All the dramatics are pared back in Part II, so what remains is mostly silent with interview voice overs, like a traditional documentary. If any of his actors still give a :) flower :) about the project, they will not be very happy.

During every interview Katzenbach never fails to pop-up every other sentence to bang you over the head with whatever point he wants to make, in case we make our own minds up and derail his sleuthing. He's probably trying to speed up the narrative, but succeeds only in putting words into peoples mouths.

Osuna returns, laid back (literally) with a self-satisfied grin on his face, as if he's being felated the entire interview.

Neither have come up with a good reason why Geraldine needs to go into hiding. We are told Sullivan is looking for a "female accomplice" and Brigante urges her to go into hiding, save her getting caught up in this mess. "It's you they are looking for" he tells her, "It would be very easy to make you not have a marriage licence."
Geraldine wrote:He told me it was for my own benefit I don't testify at the trial. He told me I should never again refer to myself as Mrs DeFeo, I should destroy any and all documentation.
But how is this going to keep her from Sullivan? If she were really married to him, it would be no secret and he would have known this from day one.

Even worse -- having Butch and Kelske put Mr DeFeo back in bed (done solely to "prove" more than one person was involved). Why put him back? "To make it look like a botched robbery" says Ryan...

Sure. A robbery is only "botched" if someone wakes up. If everyone is asleep, what went wrong? Why make it look like Mr DeFeo and Dawn were sleeping when it runs counter to your alibi?

It's an example of Ric and Ryan tying in their fiction to the crime scene photos (which they cannot change) and coming up with illogical BS.

Near the end, credibility is shot forever when the Lutzes turn up, begging Weber to let them purchase the house to test their "theory" that it is haunted. Katzenbach never mentions Weber's crime book, and claims Weber made a contract with the Lutzes during the trial!

Hilarious. Part III is going to rock!

:dance:

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Re: Shattered Hopes Part II

Post by scipio-USMC » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:37 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:Shat Hopes II is low on the revelations Katzenbach promised. The two standouts are: DellaPenna's bullet report where he examines five retrieved slugs, measuring size, shape and weight. Item #33 (from Louise) is, according to this report, a smaller fragment which weighs the same as the others. Katzenbach concludes it was therefore from a heavier bullet, consistent with being from a handgun.

But no expert is consulted on this..
That's because his claim is outright stupid. A slug from a .35 caliber rifle round is heavier than a 38 special round. His suggestion that a 38 caliber slug is heavier is flat out wrong. Even people who know little about guns should be smart enough to recognize that most rifle rounds are larger than handgun rounds. Naturally there are small caliber rifle rounds that are the exception to the general rule but 35 Remington is not a small caliber round. It is used for hunting for a reason. The exact bullets used in the murders were 170 grain it is even printed ont he boxes found int he sewer. The only .38 Special rounds heavier than this were 200 grain super police rounds. They stopped being made long ago because performance was crap and on top of it they damaged the guns. Any suggestion that 200 grain is common or was common at the time is pure nonsense. I don't know the last time it was factory made. For decades the only people I know of using 200 grain made their own bullets. You need specialize equipment to load your own rounds.

How is it that a shorter piece can weigh more than a larger piece? For starters it could have more of the core intact while a larger piece can be missing part of the core and be largely the jacket. So even things were the other way around and a handgun had been used and he was suggesting this proves a rifle fired item 33 because it was heavier it still would not prove any such thing. Only detailed anaysis and measurments will tell the full tale.

DellaPenna did a detailed hands on analysis and gave a great deal of testiony about every bullet including blowups of the microscopi views of all the rounds. He determined it was a .35 caliber rifle round and the suggestion that it isn't because of it weighs more is a joke and a half.

If you want to post all the respective measurements of the 5 bullets to discuss them a bit further feel free to do so.


sherbetbizarre wrote:Det. Gerard Gozaloff says Sullivan made "another unit within the homicide squad, that was going to try a different tact" and search for Ronnie's accomplices in a "Manson type thing".

Mike Race asks, "So Sullivan actually thought there were other people involved?"

Gerard Gozaloff: "Yes"

And then we cut to something else. Katzenbach gets his confirmation and moves on. Gozaloff is not pressed on details, but later, during Gozaloff's search for the rifle in the water, Katzenbach questions his timeline.

Could Sullivan have set this squad up to disprove more than one killer? To head off claims by Weber? And what action did this squad ever take?

Nonnowitz says police interviewed his wife, asking about "the other gun", but this was well before Sullivan came on the scene.

Before this, Katzenbach claims evidence was fabricated or dismissed because:
Ryan Katzenbach wrote:They locked their targets on Butch right from the start.
So why are they asking Nonnowitz about "another gun" then? Which, anyway, does not prove they knew someone else was involved, despite Katzenbach telling the audience:

[quote=""Ryan Katzenach"]They were very specific as to why they thought another gun was involved.
1: Nonnowitz does not say this (and if he did, I'd rather hear it from him).

2: If true, then the Police had not "locked their targets on Butch right from the start."

Katzenbach is lost in his own lies.

Elsewhere, Katzenbach tells us the Police are trying to beat a confession out of Kelske! So which is it?

Katzenbach starts to get agitated in this installment. Staring straight into camera at times to emphasize a point. A clip of Judge Stark saying Sullivan never "Judge-shopped" him is followed by an irate Katzenbach literally screaming ":) silly dilly :)!" - ever the impartial documentarian...[/quote]


First of all anyone who has half a brain would know that a DA has no control over the hoicide department. A DA can't set up anything. A prosecutor can ask homicide to investigate a specific issue more and that is it.

Frankly many things Gozaloff says is questionable but he is never pressed on any of it because Ryan has no interest in the full story simply in getting information to spin.

Ryan indeed contradicts himself in claiming they had no interest in looking for anyone other than Ronnie but then insisting they were looking for others.

He does the same thing with respect to Geraldine. The claim was that Sullivan was looking for a female accomplice and yet at the same time he insists they were looking only at Ronnie and never did a thorough investigaiton looking at anyone else.

Now not only is he contracting himself by saying they did indeed investigate the possibility of others being involved but worse he ignores the findings and insists that the fact they looked into the possibility of an accomplice proves there was one. It proves no such thing of course that is false logic. That is like saying because police investigated the possibility of an acocmplice in the Sand Hook shootings that there had to be one regardless of what the evidence actually proves.

I feel sorry for anyone dumb enough to buy Ryan's BS it means they have mental problems. It is scary to think there are peopel out there dumber than Geraldine and Ryan who came up with such classics as Ron's lawyer wanting to petition the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court for a change of venue.

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