Louise DeFeo's murder pic

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics

Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby sweetmate » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:58 am

I just started watching Shattered Hopes Part 1 on Amazon. I'm only about 20 minutes in but when they showed Lousie DeFeo clutching the heart necklace, she has a look of terror on her face. I've seen the pics of her and Big Ronnie laying on their stomachs in the bed shot, but I had never seen that pic before. Now I don't know much about what happens to a person's body after they die but if she died in her sleep, wouldn't her eyes be closed? Even if she got rolled over for the photo and her eyes opened, it seems like they would be more blank. She looks terrified. I've heard that she sat up after her husband was shot and was not sleeping. Would the look on her face lend credeance to that theory? Or maybe it's not a theory at all and you all have discussed that yes, she actually did sit up and saw Ronnie with the gun.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby quotestheraven » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:15 pm

Apparently, if someone doesn't change the person's s facial expression following death their face really will stay that way. When I took Anatomy and Physiology in college one of our cadavers was a murder victim, and he had a look of absolute horror frozen on his face. Our professor usually kept the head wrapped, but occassionally we had to do something involving the head.

If you look at the picture of Allison on her back, but still in bed - it's the same way. One of our eyes is open, her mouth is open as if she's either gasping in shock or getting ready to scream.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby Dan the Damned » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:51 pm

sweetmate wrote:...if she died in her sleep, wouldn't her eyes be closed?

Yes. There are many rumors, myths and untruths surrounding the murders and haunting. The claim that "they all died in their sleep" is one such myth, evolving over the years. I would assume the most likely reasoning for how this myth got started is that someone along the line turned "they all died in bed" to "they all died in their sleep."

I'm a bit lazy at the moment, so I'll leave it to someone else to check if such a claim was made in Anson's book.

During Ronnie's trial, they made no secret of the fact that certain members were awake. Louise was awake and the youngest daughter was awake. And evidence suggests that both the boys were probably awake. The only ones we're unsure about are the father and Dawn.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby quotestheraven » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:38 pm

I"m starting to wonder if Dawn was, in fact, the first to be shot - not necessarily the first to die - but the first to be shot. We all assume the order of the murders based on Ronnie's statements, but Ronnie hasn't ever told the truth about anything else. Why would he tell the truth about that? I'm wondering if it went down something like this: Ronnie shoots Dawn. Dad gets up and yells, "WTF is wrong with you shooting that gun in the house?" Ronnie claims it was an accident. He was cleaning the gun. He goes down stairs and shoots his dad just as his dad was either getting back into bed or he made him lay down on the bed. Then, he shoots mom and the siblings.

Dawn was found in a natural sleeping position, and judging by the post mordem pictures I've seen - she just looks like she was sleeping peacefully apart from the damage done to her face. I just don't think she saw death coming for her - unlike poor Mrs. Defeo and Allison.

I know that Dawn had not yet gone into full rigor when the rest of the family did, so a lot of people think she was killed significantly later. But, here's a sad/depressing/morbid thought. You can live quite some time after being shot in the head. Abraham Lincoln was shot behind his left ear and he lived for almost 10 hours after being shot. I've also read that the "he died instantly" thing is usually a lie that is told for the comfort of the family. So, I'm wondering if Dawn was the first one shot, but her heart didn't actually stop beating for some time afterwards.

As for how the "they all died in their sleep" thing started - it was in all of the early newspaper clippings about the killing. It says they were all asleep and in exactly the same position. The media invented the mystery right from the beginning.

I also don't think there's anything coincidental about when the murders happened. I don't think it was a spur of the moment thing. I think Ronnie planned it out. He did it on a week night when all of his family would be home, no friends would be sleeping over, his father wasn't expected at work the next day.... The timing was really perfect. If his father had been expected at work that day, the bodies might have been discovered much sooner.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby Rokiisun » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:35 pm

It's a possible theory... infact, any theory is possible (which I guess is why some people
like to believe that there was a second gun or more than one shooter because there is
a window of opportunity to raise a theory there...).

My theory is that because there was a war flick on in the background - Ronnie may have
had the television up loud and the family simply slept through the film and the shots because
during sleep their brains probably still would have been in 'Ronnie is watching a war film' mode.

Ronnie may have also hinted off he was going to be cleaning his rifles in his bedroom.
But then having said that, who would allow him to do this if Marc needed to be up the
next day for a hospital appointment?

So maybe whilst Ronnie was watching the film - one family member (Dawn/Big Ronnie)
told him to keep the racket down. He could have then went to his bedroom and shot
Dawn, then Big Ronnie (who was settling back into bed), Louise, Allison, then the brothers.
All within a matter of seconds.

At some point after the parents/allison I believe Marc (and maybe also John) got out of
bed to check what was going on and Ronnie either told/made him go back to bed.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby scipio-USMC » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:48 pm

sweetmate wrote:I just started watching Shattered Hopes Part 1 on Amazon. I'm only about 20 minutes in but when they showed Lousie DeFeo clutching the heart necklace, she has a look of terror on her face. I've seen the pics of her and Big Ronnie laying on their stomachs in the bed shot, but I had never seen that pic before. Now I don't know much about what happens to a person's body after they die but if she died in her sleep, wouldn't her eyes be closed? Even if she got rolled over for the photo and her eyes opened, it seems like they would be more blank. She looks terrified. I've heard that she sat up after her husband was shot and was not sleeping. Would the look on her face lend credeance to that theory? Or maybe it's not a theory at all and you all have discussed that yes, she actually did sit up and saw Ronnie with the gun.


First of all whether eyes were opened or closed at death doesn't tell us whether the person was sleeping or not immediately prior to dying. Since at death the body no longer has control over eyelid function they sometimes open upon death (and some people actually sleep with their eyes open though a minority of people to be sure) though they had been closed prior to death and eyes opening upon death has been proven to have happened to a number of people who die in their sleep. So whether eyes were found open or closed is not a reliable indicator of whether someone was asleep at death.

In this particular case the evidence shows that Louise started to lift her body up (presumably after hearing her husband get shot) and then she was shot. So she was obviously awake when shot because while peopel move in their sleep they roll they don' lift their bodies up. How awake and cognizant of her surroundings she was is a question the evidence can't tell us.

The evidence establishes that Allison was awake as well. She had power burns in her eyes which means her eyes were open and facing the killer at the time the fatal shot was fired and that the weapon was not too far from her head at the time.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby scipio-USMC » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:15 pm

quotestheraven wrote:I"m starting to wonder if Dawn was, in fact, the first to be shot - not necessarily the first to die - but the first to be shot. We all assume the order of the murders based on Ronnie's statements, but Ronnie hasn't ever told the truth about anything else. Why would he tell the truth about that? I'm wondering if it went down something like this: Ronnie shoots Dawn. Dad gets up and yells, "WTF is wrong with you shooting that gun in the house?" Ronnie claims it was an accident. He was cleaning the gun. He goes down stairs and shoots his dad just as his dad was either getting back into bed or he made him lay down on the bed. Then, he shoots mom and the siblings.

Dawn was found in a natural sleeping position, and judging by the post mordem pictures I've seen - she just looks like she was sleeping peacefully apart from the damage done to her face. I just don't think she saw death coming for her - unlike poor Mrs. Defeo and Allison.

I know that Dawn had not yet gone into full rigor when the rest of the family did, so a lot of people think she was killed significantly later. But, here's a sad/depressing/morbid thought. You can live quite some time after being shot in the head. Abraham Lincoln was shot behind his left ear and he lived for almost 10 hours after being shot. I've also read that the "he died instantly" thing is usually a lie that is told for the comfort of the family. So, I'm wondering if Dawn was the first one shot, but her heart didn't actually stop beating for some time afterwards.

As for how the "they all died in their sleep" thing started - it was in all of the early newspaper clippings about the killing. It says they were all asleep and in exactly the same position. The media invented the mystery right from the beginning.

I also don't think there's anything coincidental about when the murders happened. I don't think it was a spur of the moment thing. I think Ronnie planned it out. He did it on a week night when all of his family would be home, no friends would be sleeping over, his father wasn't expected at work the next day.... The timing was really perfect. If his father had been expected at work that day, the bodies might have been discovered much sooner.


While some claim that Dawn was not yet in full rigor I have never seen such from a reliable source. At any rate she coudl have been shot last and still died much later. In addition tempoerature has to so with rigor setting in and we don't know if the third floor was colder which is a possiiblity.

I see no reaosn to doubt his account of the order. First of all it is much more likely to be his father he would want to shoot and after that to then kill the rest of the family because they would rat him out. Second, he kept giving the same order when he claimed it was the mob hit man as when he finally gave up and admitted that he murdered them. He added that Dawn called down to him after he killed the rest. He then waited for her to fall back asleep before killing her. He had no reason to make up that detail about her waking up. It likely is true. Unless he fired an extra shot in each parent later on, he had to reload before killing Dawn. It was not fully loaded merely 3 rounds had been loaded in 1 of which was used to kill and the other 2 remained in the weapon. DId he grab 3 extra rounds and reload at the time or did he have to go to his room to reload? That we don't know because he didn't really say.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby sherbetbizarre » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:48 pm

Guys, just wait for Shattered Hopes III, where Katzenbach will solve everything...

SHATTERED HOPES: THE TRUE STORY OF THE AMITYVILLE MURDERS wrote:Hi Ken, would love to answer this question as it's a very good one. Unfortunately, THIS VERY TOPIC, among many, many others are part of the intensive discussion, along with new evidence/material we're going to present, in Part III. By the time the final credits role on Part III, Dawn's involvement will be thoroughly understood and I feel, as an investigator, and filmmaker, that every question about this case will be solved once and for all. So, in short....stay tuned.....Part III is progressing along rapidly for a release in the next few months.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby quotestheraven » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:41 pm

Can I just say how much this garbage about Dawn being involved pisses me off? The girl is a murder victim. She had her life stolen from here. She is not here to defend herself against these accusations. She is not going to get the trial by jury that Ronnie got because she is DEAD. She was murdered. To add the injustice of these allegations to it - my head could just about spin around and pop off. If I could I would run my first right down Ronnie Defeo's throat.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby sherbetbizarre » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:52 pm

In the past hour, Ryan posted a couple of "Dr. Adelman's personal photos from the DeFeo crime" showing:

SHATTERED HOPES: THE TRUE STORY OF THE AMITYVILLE MURDERS wrote:...exactly how Dawn DeFeo was found in bed

and

SHATTERED HOPES: THE TRUE STORY OF THE AMITYVILLE MURDERS wrote:...how Marc DeFeo's body was discovered. What's your opinion? Does the fact that both boys were discovered uncovered with their blankets pushed to the foot of the bed indicate that they were up and awake at the time they were murdered?

...or maybe covers were pulled back the following day when people checked to see if they were still alive!

:fp:

SHATTERED HOPES: THE TRUE STORY OF THE AMITYVILLE MURDERS wrote:Dawn's crime scene, to me, look more staged than the rest of the victims. There can be no doubt that Dawn DeFeo was up and about...and that there was a struggle.

:wall:
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby sherbetbizarre » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:05 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:While some claim that Dawn was not yet in full rigor I have never seen such from a reliable source. At any rate she coudl have been shot last and still died much later.

Even Ryan says that's possible:

SHATTERED HOPES: THE TRUE STORY OF THE AMITYVILLE MURDERS wrote:I'll let you guys in on what the autopsy says: Dawn's wound, first off, was not at close range. There was absolutely zero stippling around the wound indicating that the shot came from a distance of perhaps 4 feet, possibly more.

The bullet went in the back of her neck and travelled through the skull to the left side of her head. A fragment of the bullet pierced her skull next to her left eye and this would be the fragment that they found outside of her body. The bulk of the shell was found inside her skull, and thus removed, when the autopsy was performed. Dawn's skull suffered an implosion which caused one side to cave in. (Wow, this is horrible stuff to talk about) The skull contains a tremendous amount of pressure within it. Thus, when Dawn's skull was pierced, there was a rapid release of pressure through the small hole made by the exiting projectile.

Interestingly, Dawn DeFeo's autopsy contains two distinct causes of death: (1) massive hemorrhage due to the shot to the back of her neck, and (2) asphyxiation. In other words, after the shot was administered, Dawn hung on to life long enough to essentially drown in her own blood.

Frightening and sad stuff.


Yet he still wants us to believe it was because she was up and running about, shooting her siblings.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby quotestheraven » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:22 pm

All that proves is that Ronnie and Dawn did NOT struggle over the gun.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby quotestheraven » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:28 pm

asphyxiation. In other words, after the shot was administered, Dawn hung on to life long enough to essentially drown in her own blood.


That would actually support my theory that Dawn was actually the first one shot, but not the first one to die.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby astonio » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:53 am

Are we looking at the same crime scene photo? I don't understand how Ryan can emphatically state there was a struggle in her room - no doubt. I saw nothing askew in her bedroom. Her vanity or the small table filled with nail polish to the night stand...nothing visible was moved or turned over. Further, from the way she was shot by her brother in the back of the head, how do you do this after a struggle? How does the lack of recorded stippling negate she was shot at close range? Does Ryan know how many feet from her bedroom doorway to her bed was to say where Ronnie stood?
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby quotestheraven » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:07 pm

Not to mention he really expects us to believe that Dawn and Ronnie fought over the gun, he threw her to the bed, and then he backed up five feet to shoot her? Really? It makes absolutely no sense.

And then that chick who said Ronnie said he shot Dawn in the closet - if he shot Dawn in the closet then how was the part of the bullet that exited her head found in the mattress? It would have been in the closetor not found. Plus, where the bullet was found indicates that Dawn was found in the same position that she was shot in.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby scipio-USMC » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:44 pm

quotestheraven wrote:
asphyxiation. In other words, after the shot was administered, Dawn hung on to life long enough to essentially drown in her own blood.


That would actually support my theory that Dawn was actually the first one shot, but not the first one to die.


It doesn't really support your theory.

Let's look at it in detail. Most bleeding stops when the heart stops. Once the heart stops the only way blood will come out is gravity which basically means unless blood is already out or already at the wound and gravity makes it fall then it is going to dry where it is and not move. The fact she hemmoraged means her heart was still pumping for a while after the fatal shot. Obviously her mind was gone and she was brain dead already but the heart kept pumping for an undetermined period of time. My own guess is that it was not a very long period since her brain was damaged and it is unlikely she would have been breathing on her own for an extended period of time. Moreover, it was a severe wound not a minor one. If we were talking about a small wound that would take a long time for someone to bleed out that is one thing. But wih such a massive wound the blood flow would have been signifiant and it is unlikely it that the blood drowned her slowly I would expect that it would not take too long for that to happen given the wound. Indeed that kind of blood loss could not be survived for too long. That being the case it is unlikely she died significantly after she was shot or significantly after everyone else.

The bottom line is this, her heart kept beating for an undetermined period after she was shot. This in no way whatsoever helps us to determine whether she was shot first or last. She could have been shot last and died last. She could have been shot first and died last. She could have been shot in between some of th eothers and have died in between some of the others. This evidence doesn't provide any basis to assess whether she was shot before or after anyone else or died before or after anyone else.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby scipio-USMC » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:51 pm

astonio wrote:Are we looking at the same crime scene photo? I don't understand how Ryan can emphatically state there was a struggle in her room - no doubt. I saw nothing askew in her bedroom. Her vanity or the small table filled with nail polish to the night stand...nothing visible was moved or turned over. Further, from the way she was shot by her brother in the back of the head, how do you do this after a struggle? How does the lack of recorded stippling negate she was shot at close range? Does Ryan know how many feet from her bedroom doorway to her bed was to say where Ronnie stood?


Ryan is a master at rendering uninformed opinions. He is the same clown who suggested that one of the bullets that killed Louise was larger and heavier than the 35. rifle rounds that killed the others and because it was heavier and larger it likely was a .38 special revolver round. The only thing likely larger and heavier than a .35 rifle round is a larger rifle round. Handgun rounds are generally smaller than rifle rounds especially a 38 special round.

Ryan makes up his on BS without having any expertise or knowledge about the subjects he discusses. He is a legend in his own mind.

The experts who examined the scene found no evidence at all of a struggle. They were in the best position to observe what was there and to assess it based on their expertise in the field. Ryan's conclusions are not supported by anything. The fact anyone takes his crap seriously after seeing how he operates just makes them fools. They are the suckers Barnum talked about and that is what Ryan banks on.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby Lamelune » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:15 am

I have seen this very rare pic.

I don't understand why her face is blue or purple ?
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby quotestheraven » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:00 am

I think the discoloration was actually from blood on her face.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby scipio-USMC » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:05 pm

Lamelune wrote:I have seen this very rare pic.

I don't understand why her face is blue or purple ?


If yo umean spotting that is known as livor mortis. There will be discoloration where blood settles. Blood is red when it is exposed to oxygen outside the body. Inside the body it has a bluish hue. Where blood collects you will often see blue discoloration of the skin. If you mean the entire face looks blue it could just be pale.
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Re: Louise DeFeo's murder pic

Postby kathyM » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:08 pm

So Ryan thinks he is an investigator? :lol: :rotate:
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