Everything offending everybody

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KevinW
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Everything offending everybody

Post by KevinW » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:09 am



Kevin
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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Amit Y Ville » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:18 am

The worlds gone mad.

In my country its now legal to remove statues of British heroes if they had any affiliation with slavery. If we undid all the good some of those heroes did we would be speaking German now. Just because this culture is now in this country shouldn't mean those supporting this campaign should undo history.

But positive discrimination is totally OK. Black people are suddenly being promoted because of the colour of their skin. Whether they are qualified for a promotion or not.

Being offended doesn't make one right.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:21 pm

You're right. The Aunt Jermima character isn't racist. Nor is the Uncle Ben character or the rest. That isn't the issue.

Likewise, the issue isn't whether or not the people/actors were paid for posing as those characters.

The issue is the connotation these images have to slavery.

To many white people, the image of a black domestic servant (like Aunt Jemima) is a reminder of "the good old days" -- a time when life was slower-paced and less complicated than it is today.

But to many black people, the same image of a black domestic servant is a stark reminder of slavery, because black domestic servants started out as slaves. Even though Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben were undoubtedly not depicted as being slaves, the majority of people in those same roles prior to the Civil War were slaves.

It is not a case of direct racism, but nonetheless, it is a case of an indirect or unintentional celebration of slavery. It is the celebration of the beloved black mammy -- an institution which started with slaves.

And this is why people object to Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben. It is a very legitimate complaint. People can look at the same image and come away from it with very different feelings.

Let me try this another way. Imagine a photograph from the 1950s depicting the police raiding a bar and savagely beating the occupants. A lot of people might think, "Oh, the people in that bar must have been up to no good. They must have been engaging in illegal activity or something. Maybe they were mobsters."

But being a gay man, you recognize the name of the bar in the photo. And you realize that this is a photo of the cops routinely raiding gay bars and beating and harassing the occupants for the crime of being homosexual. Because things like that were just kinda allowed to happen back then. Because no one dared to speak out against it.

You know its wrong. You know the horrific history behind it. But for others looking at that same photograph, the deeper meaning you see is lost on them. They just don't see it. Not until you explain it to them. (And sometimes not even then.)

Back in the 70s, the mayor of Philadelphia (Frank Rizzo) was well-known for brutally targeting black people and gays. He was a violent and racist man who fiercely opposed desegregation and who often told his supporters to "vote white." During his re-election campaign in 1975, he said, "Just wait after November, you'll have a front row seat because I'm going to make Atilla the Hun look like a faggot."

And yeah, he actually won that re-election -- serving as mayor until 1980.

He died in 1991, and a statue of him was erected 7 years later.

Should such a statue exist? A statue is used to honor people. Should we be honoring an openly racist man who used his power to intimidate and persecute homosexuals and black people throughout his career, often through illegal and unconstitutional measures?

I wouldn't think so.

And the statue was finally taken down a few weeks ago.

That is not "trying to erase history." That is simply the refusal to honor those who don't deserve it.

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Anarane
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Anarane » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:29 am

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:18 am
In my country its now legal to remove statues of British heroes if they had any affiliation with slavery. If we undid all the good some of those heroes did we would be speaking German now. Just because this culture is now in this country shouldn't mean those supporting this campaign should undo history.
No-one's asking to erase these people from history or "undid all the good" (lol ok); we can still learn about these people and note their achievements in history lessons and museums. But they shouldn't be celebrated or revered with statues. That's the issue. Hitler was a vegetarian and super kind to dogs - but that part of his personality doesn't eclipse his atrocities. Same for British "heroes". The statues of people who built their legacy and wealth on the exploitation or suppression of others should be removed. End of.
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:18 am
But positive discrimination is totally OK. Black people are suddenly being promoted because of the colour of their skin. Whether they are qualified for a promotion or not.

Being offended doesn't make one right.
No, it isn't. I'm an equality law specialist in the UK, and positive discrimination is very much illegal. As for the statement about POC people "suddenly being promoted" - what a disgraceful thing to say. One; no they're not – just 11% of FTSE 100 directors are people of colour – and two, if you're offended by BIPOC/BAME people fighting hundreds of years of injustices, then you clearly have never had to suffer those same injustices. Never worried that you name or your skin tone would prevent you getting a job or promotion. Lucky you, eh?

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TC1
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by TC1 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:15 pm

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:18 am
The worlds gone mad.
It sure has, my account was somehow erected from the dead and rolled back to the state it was in on April 17, 2019. Also Cleveland from Family Guy is getting a new voice actor.
Instead of just ignoring this board, I have asked to be banned, because I am mental...

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:47 pm

Yeah, we lost all board data between April 2019 and June 2020. Any new accounts made within that time frame are also lost. I guess the board got covid or something.

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KevinW
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by KevinW » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:05 am



Kevin
All football is is a bunch of over-pumped jocks on steroids who say they're straight while they smack each other's behinds and chase each other around on a field so they can tackle another guy to play with that guy's ball.

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:10 pm

America - love it or leave it.

If only it wasn't for that pesky problem with racist policemen intentionally murdering people... :naughty:

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Amit Y Ville » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:32 am

Anarane wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:29 am
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:18 am
In my country its now legal to remove statues of British heroes if they had any affiliation with slavery. If we undid all the good some of those heroes did we would be speaking German now. Just because this culture is now in this country shouldn't mean those supporting this campaign should undo history.
No-one's asking to erase these people from history or "undid all the good" (lol ok); we can still learn about these people and note their achievements in history lessons and museums. But they shouldn't be celebrated or revered with statues. That's the issue. Hitler was a vegetarian and super kind to dogs - but that part of his personality doesn't eclipse his atrocities. Same for British "heroes". The statues of people who built their legacy and wealth on the exploitation or suppression of others should be removed. End of.
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:18 am
But positive discrimination is totally OK. Black people are suddenly being promoted because of the colour of their skin. Whether they are qualified for a promotion or not.

Being offended doesn't make one right.
No, it isn't. I'm an equality law specialist in the UK, and positive discrimination is very much illegal. As for the statement about POC people "suddenly being promoted" - what a disgraceful thing to say. One; no they're not – just 11% of FTSE 100 directors are people of colour – and two, if you're offended by BIPOC/BAME people fighting hundreds of years of injustices, then you clearly have never had to suffer those same injustices. Never worried that you name or your skin tone would prevent you getting a job or promotion. Lucky you, eh?
Churchill did more than be vegetarian or a dog lover.

The company I work for is making sure 2 out of 10 that are hired will be black. Tell me thats not positive discrimination. They announced this broadly so doubt very much its illegal.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

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Anarane
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Anarane » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:29 am

That's positive action. Not positive discrimination. Positive action is legal - positive discrimination is not. You're throwing terms around when you're ignorant to what they mean.

And they will only be hired if they are exactly as qualified as their white counterparts. It's not legal to employ a less experienced, less qualified person based on a protected characteristic like race - you're only permitted to choose an underrepresented minority over a white person if they're jointly qualified. Which, of course, never happens, because white people are more likely to have a university education, have work experience etc.

It's to address years of systemic racism and invert the pattern of male, pale, and stale boardrooms imp/explicitly hiring people just like themselves. The status quo maintains itself. How anyone can be offended by policies that seek to change centuries of institutional racism blows my mind.

I'm glad we're pulling down statues. BAME/BIPOC are being killed by our police in US AND UK but no-one gave a sh!t about that. Statues, on the other hand? Oh, we're up in arms about that! Well, if that's what it takes to make people take notice, so be it. Churchill was openly racist and every statue honouring him needs to be removed. He's still an important historical figure and we can learn all about him in museums and curricula – but honouring him with statues? Christ, no.

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KevinW
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by KevinW » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:18 pm

On the Deaths Head Revisited episode of The Twilight Zone, a former Nazi returns to a concentration camp that he used to run and is met with the ghosts of those he tortured and killed and held accountable for what he did. At the end, he dies, and as he's being taken away, somebody asks why the concentration camp is left standing and why doesn't somebody tear it down. Rod Serling then comes on with his ending dialogue:
There is an answer to the doctor's question. All the Dachaus must remain standing. The Dachaus, the Belsens, the Buchenwalds, the Auschwitzes – all of them. They must remain standing because they are a monument to a moment in time when some men decided to turn the Earth into a graveyard. Into it they shoveled all of their reason, their logic, their knowledge, but worst of all, their conscience. And the moment we forget this, the moment we cease to be haunted by its remembrance, then we become the gravediggers. Something to dwell on and to remember, not only in the Twilight Zone but wherever men walk God's Earth.
Kevin
All football is is a bunch of over-pumped jocks on steroids who say they're straight while they smack each other's behinds and chase each other around on a field so they can tackle another guy to play with that guy's ball.

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:36 pm

Right! The concentration camps stand not as an honor to the Nazis, but as a warning from history.

Surely you're not suggesting the statues of confederates are in place because they are wicked?

Statues are erected to honor people. The statues of the confederate heroes? They were traitors to the United States! They actively went to war with the United States! They are not heroes! They stood for slavery and white supremacy.

We don't "remember history" by erecting statues honoring the bad guys...

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Brendan72
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Brendan72 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm

If we remove things reminding us of an unpleasant history how are future generations meant to learn from it - some statues (Confederate ones) may need removing but what about George Washington? And who gets to decide who is and isn't worthy of a statue? It needs to be asked what the real reason is for removal of statues if they are even targeting Abraham Lincoln?

Removing history (or retro'ing history) is actually something the Communist Chinese did in their early days as well as publicly naming and shaming anybody with a dissenting viewpoint, parading them through the streets as people spat at and abused them. These days they just use social media. Erasing history was something George Orwell described in his book Nineteen Eight Four.
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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:36 pm

By removing statues, no one is trying to say that the civil war never took place. No one is trying to say that these confederate generals did not exist. No one is trying to change or erase history.

Removing the statues is saying that these were bad men who do not deserve to be honored with a statue.

The Confederacy took up arms against the United States. They were traitors. All because they wanted to keep slavery legal and felt that black people were inferior.

These were honorable men only in the eyes of fellow white supremacists and those who feel there is nothing wrong with white supremacists.

It is not coincidental that the majority of these confederate statues were erected firstly (1900s) during a time when a lot of states started enacting Jim Crow laws, and secondly (1950s-1960s) during de-segregation and the start of the civil rights movement.

Image

These statues are a "polite" way of burning a cross on someone's lawn. These statues say, "Remember your place, boy."

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Amit Y Ville » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 am

Anarane wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:29 am
That's positive action. Not positive discrimination. Positive action is legal - positive discrimination is not. You're throwing terms around when you're ignorant to what they mean.

And they will only be hired if they are exactly as qualified as their white counterparts. It's not legal to employ a less experienced, less qualified person based on a protected characteristic like race - you're only permitted to choose an underrepresented minority over a white person if they're jointly qualified. Which, of course, never happens, because white people are more likely to have a university education, have work experience etc.

It's to address years of systemic racism and invert the pattern of male, pale, and stale boardrooms imp/explicitly hiring people just like themselves. The status quo maintains itself. How anyone can be offended by policies that seek to change centuries of institutional racism blows my mind.

I'm glad we're pulling down statues. BAME/BIPOC are being killed by our police in US AND UK but no-one gave a sh!t about that. Statues, on the other hand? Oh, we're up in arms about that! Well, if that's what it takes to make people take notice, so be it. Churchill was openly racist and every statue honouring him needs to be removed. He's still an important historical figure and we can learn all about him in museums and curricula – but honouring him with statues? Christ, no.
I don't think you know what you're talking about so not going to waste much time replying.

If black persons were qualified then they would be getting the job now, and they are doing. Now there is a culture of they will look at their skin colour first and try to slot them based on qualifications to make up the 2/10. I've seen people not qualified at all for jobs who are getting employed, so its not quantifiable. Its absolutely positive discrimination but will be masked as something else.

If you support pulling down statues which is surely illegal then why are you even in the country to begin with. Respect history and stop trying to rewrite it. Churchill helped save our country in the war and anyone who says his statue should be removed doesn't have the right to an opinion. Not going to say you need your head checked or anything because you're not aware of the facts thats all.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

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Brendan72
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Brendan72 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:07 pm

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 am
Anarane wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:29 am
That's positive action. Not positive discrimination. Positive action is legal - positive discrimination is not. You're throwing terms around when you're ignorant to what they mean.

And they will only be hired if they are exactly as qualified as their white counterparts. It's not legal to employ a less experienced, less qualified person based on a protected characteristic like race - you're only permitted to choose an underrepresented minority over a white person if they're jointly qualified. Which, of course, never happens, because white people are more likely to have a university education, have work experience etc.

It's to address years of systemic racism and invert the pattern of male, pale, and stale boardrooms imp/explicitly hiring people just like themselves. The status quo maintains itself. How anyone can be offended by policies that seek to change centuries of institutional racism blows my mind.

I'm glad we're pulling down statues. BAME/BIPOC are being killed by our police in US AND UK but no-one gave a sh!t about that. Statues, on the other hand? Oh, we're up in arms about that! Well, if that's what it takes to make people take notice, so be it. Churchill was openly racist and every statue honouring him needs to be removed. He's still an important historical figure and we can learn all about him in museums and curricula – but honouring him with statues? Christ, no.
I don't think you know what you're talking about so not going to waste much time replying.

If black persons were qualified then they would be getting the job now, and they are doing. Now there is a culture of they will look at their skin colour first and try to slot them based on qualifications to make up the 2/10. I've seen people not qualified at all for jobs who are getting employed, so its not quantifiable. Its absolutely positive discrimination but will be masked as something else.

If you support pulling down statues which is surely illegal then why are you even in the country to begin with. Respect history and stop trying to rewrite it. Churchill helped save our country in the war and anyone who says his statue should be removed doesn't have the right to an opinion. Not going to say you need your head checked or anything because you're not aware of the facts thats all.
I found it hugely ironic that they wanted to pull down the statue of a man who stood against fascism. They also wanted to tear down the statue of Abraham Lincoln who fought against and abolished slavery in the United States.

One explanation could be that the people tearing it down are actually the fascists.
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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Amit Y Ville » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:40 am

Brendan72 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:07 pm
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 am
Anarane wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:29 am
That's positive action. Not positive discrimination. Positive action is legal - positive discrimination is not. You're throwing terms around when you're ignorant to what they mean.

And they will only be hired if they are exactly as qualified as their white counterparts. It's not legal to employ a less experienced, less qualified person based on a protected characteristic like race - you're only permitted to choose an underrepresented minority over a white person if they're jointly qualified. Which, of course, never happens, because white people are more likely to have a university education, have work experience etc.

It's to address years of systemic racism and invert the pattern of male, pale, and stale boardrooms imp/explicitly hiring people just like themselves. The status quo maintains itself. How anyone can be offended by policies that seek to change centuries of institutional racism blows my mind.

I'm glad we're pulling down statues. BAME/BIPOC are being killed by our police in US AND UK but no-one gave a sh!t about that. Statues, on the other hand? Oh, we're up in arms about that! Well, if that's what it takes to make people take notice, so be it. Churchill was openly racist and every statue honouring him needs to be removed. He's still an important historical figure and we can learn all about him in museums and curricula – but honouring him with statues? Christ, no.
I don't think you know what you're talking about so not going to waste much time replying.

If black persons were qualified then they would be getting the job now, and they are doing. Now there is a culture of they will look at their skin colour first and try to slot them based on qualifications to make up the 2/10. I've seen people not qualified at all for jobs who are getting employed, so its not quantifiable. Its absolutely positive discrimination but will be masked as something else.

If you support pulling down statues which is surely illegal then why are you even in the country to begin with. Respect history and stop trying to rewrite it. Churchill helped save our country in the war and anyone who says his statue should be removed doesn't have the right to an opinion. Not going to say you need your head checked or anything because you're not aware of the facts thats all.
I found it hugely ironic that they wanted to pull down the statue of a man who stood against fascism. They also wanted to tear down the statue of Abraham Lincoln who fought against and abolished slavery in the United States.

One explanation could be that the people tearing it down are actually the fascists.
Agreed, and they're idiots.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:55 am

Funny how you guys fail to mention the reasons people are giving for wanting the statues of Lincoln and Churchill taken down. Almost like you haven't bothered to check it out. :think:

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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Brendan72 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:50 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:55 am
Funny how you guys fail to mention the reasons people are giving for wanting the statues of Lincoln and Churchill taken down. Almost like you haven't bothered to check it out. :think:
The real reason or what MSM are telling us?
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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:40 pm

There are people who are seeking the removal of statues of Churchill as well as one particular statue of Lincoln. I find it very telling that their reasons for this are not even being mentioned in this thread.

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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Brendan72 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:27 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:40 pm
There are people who are seeking the removal of statues of Churchill as well as one particular statue of Lincoln. I find it very telling that their reasons for this are not even being mentioned in this thread.
What are their reasons?
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"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
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