Barry Springer

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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FoxyJ
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Post by FoxyJ » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:22 am

As most of us who've seen all available documents are aware, RJD had the knack of persuading many people to do as he asked (they must have considered him an easy [financial] touch) but I cannot understand why none of these people has ever been held accountable in law for his or her actions.

I swore an affidavit at one time and was 'warned' by the solicitor present that I risked prosecution if anything to which I was attesting was not the absolute truth to the best of my knowledge.

Why would his grandmother have 'lodged' the necessary fees for the testing of evidence? She certainly had little to gain from doing so - it is difficult to understand how the usual family affiliations could continue to be afforded to RJD after the destruction he had wrought by his actions. Even Michael Brigante Sr. covered the fees for his initial defense and, reportedly, for the assistance of Herman Race, and yet he had seen the 'horror' in that house for himself.

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Post by TIA » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:06 am

FoxyJ wrote:As most of us who've seen all available documents are aware, RJD had the knack of persuading many people to do as he asked (they must have considered him an easy [financial] touch) but I cannot understand why none of these people has ever been held accountable in law for his or her actions.

I don't know, but my guess would be that it was perhaps a low priority given the spectacular ineffectiveness of the affidavits.

I swore an affidavit at one time and was 'warned' by the solicitor present that I risked prosecution if anything to which I was attesting was not the absolute truth to the best of my knowledge.

That's how it should be.

Why would his grandmother have 'lodged' the necessary fees for the testing of evidence? She certainly had little to gain from doing so - it is difficult to understand how the usual family affiliations could continue to be afforded to RJD after the destruction he had wrought by his actions. Even Michael Brigante Sr. covered the fees for his initial defense and, reportedly, for the assistance of Herman Race, and yet he had seen the 'horror' in that house for himself.
I think it's difficult to understand how they felt after the murders, including how they felt towards RDJ after he wiped out the family.

Some things that occur to me is that they may never have truly accepted his guilt, or they may have felt a version of loyalty towards Louise and Ronald Defeo Sr, about taking care of their one surviving child, even though he was responsible for their only being him left.

But given he tormented them with multiple versions of how their children and grandchildren were murdered, my best guess over the tests would be an attempt to try and see if anything he said was verifiable.

But who knows? RDJ is just lucky they did any of it.
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FoxyJ
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Post by FoxyJ » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:10 am

Frankly I couldn't give a fig about RJD's feelings but if the testing would have helped those of his grandmother, then I just wish they could have been done when Judge Stark first agreed. That's not to say that the inquisitive amongst us wouldn't have been keen to see the results also. :roll:

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Post by TIA » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:15 am

FoxyJ wrote:Frankly I couldn't give a fig about RJD's feelings but if the testing would have helped those of his grandmother, then I just wish they could have been done when Judge Stark first agreed. That's not to say that the inquisitive amongst us wouldn't have been keen to see the results also. :roll:

It may have been why she wanted the tests done, but it wouldn't have helped. And wouldn't it have been dreadful if she'd believed her granddaughter was involved in the murders because RDJ had told her that's what the test would show? I'm sure she would have discovered the truth at some point, but it might have taken a terrible toll on the woman, and on the rest of the family.
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littlemissfitz
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Post by littlemissfitz » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:57 am

I think they knew about the abuse that went on towards Ronnie & maybe felt guilty for not stepping in and stopping it before it got to this dreadful end.

Over the years they probably felt helpless to intervene in the troubles of the family. Big Ronnie probably did'nt want Louise's father to know how abusive he was to his daughter & family even though they probably knew what was going on. When Ronnie lost it, flipped and murdered the family they probably felt like they were partly to blame for not intervening earlier.

Sometimes, even within families people will turn a blind eye and not get involved in each other's troubles, prefering to 'leave them sort it out amongst themselves'

I think guilt was the factor here.
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Post by FoxyJ » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:26 pm

I love my mother dearly, my late father too, but he was never the stereotypical 'family man' and had no patience with either my brother or myself (he was fine with my little sister). He would regularly hit my brother really hard and used to slap me around the back of the head (so frequently in fact that I permanently lost the hearing in my left ear at the age of 7). My mother never 'interfered' with my father's disciplining of we children.

My brother's antics drove my parents to distraction. He was almost expelled from grammar school for blowing up the long-jump pit with nitroglycerin stolen from the chemistry lab, he set fire to an enormous haystack the property of none other than the High Sheriff of Northaw (where we lived), he 'scrumped' apples, poached fish and blew our dustbin lid right over the roof of the house using gunpowder extracted from fireworks, almost giving our uncle a heart-attack in the process. He was hauled home by the police on more than a few occasions and suffered the full force of our father's wrath as a consequence.

He was also under the care of a child psychiatrist for a while when very young, who, incidentally, put all his problems down to the awful sights he witnessed during bombing raids in WW2. He never witnessed any such thing! The poor psychiatrist was gobsmacked!

Despite all the beatings he adored my father, even more so I think than he did our mother. There is no way he would ever have resorted to violence against either parent, no more would I. We would both 'disappear' when dad came home from work, discretion being the better part of valour.

So what is it that turns a problem child into a killer?

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radiomixer
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Post by radiomixer » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:21 pm

FoxyJ wrote:It would be very interesting to know why, as she professed to be a close friend of Mrs. DeFeo, Linnea Nonnewitz would have made any statements that could have been seen to assist RJD in any way. I would have imagined she would have been keen to see him pay dearly for what he had done.
Some people have no problem whatsoever discerning truth from revenge or avenging a person's memory or friendship. Is there something in Nonnewitz' manner or statements that would hint to you that she would be the type of person to bend the truth for personal gain?

Then again, some folks would sell themselves for profit. I don't know either way, I'm merely asking for your impression of why you feel as stated above in re Nonnewitz.

Also, I recall Nonnewitz referring to being a sort of 'girlfriend' of Mrs. DeFeo, but don't recall her ever stating she was a very "close friend" to her.

FoxyJ wrote:Quite possibly but where's the evidence? Why did the likes of Springer and Davidge then apparently comply with RJD's wishes (affidavits) years later. Did they really think they would gain financially from a man disinherited by his own actions?
According to your trusted source, TL DeFeo, Ronnie does indeed have money, not the least of which was a six-figure sum left to him by one of his relatives. The current Mrs. DeFeo revealed this after posting that RJD had just purchased a $600 puppy for her kids. Mrs. DeFeo: "And of course my beautiful white german (sic) shepard (sic) puppy Ronnie bought my kids on tuesday (sic). $600.00 for the puppy, so you tell me what kind of animal he is....(no pun intended). LOL"
FoxyJ wrote:If it's so that Davidge, Springer, and the Nonnewitzes were only interested in helping him for money, that makes them no better than he. It's a mystery to me why none of the affidavit signatories was ever prosecuted for, at the very least, attempting/conspiring to pervert the course of justice (or its US equivalent).
I couldn't agree more. But let's keep in mind, if he convinced any of these people that he would eventually get out, they *might* just be fearful of him. It wouldn't be too far a stretch to imagine that a man who would wipe out his own flesh and blood might be dangerous toward people who, in his estimation, refuse to do his bidding? Just something to think about.
FoxyJ wrote:Why would his grandmother have 'lodged' the necessary fees for the testing of evidence?
If you were in similar shoes, and your grandson gave you umpteen differing versions of the same event, wouldn't *you* be curious as to what really happened? Her payment of these fees does not necessarily suggest she felt RJD to be innocent.

Again, fear may have been a factor, i.e., future victims of RJD if he got out of prison somehow. Obviously RJD has no problem with murdering his own relatives. I read somewhere that RJD had a "hit list" of more people he intended to murder. Such fear for personal safety would definitely bear weight on the suspect affidavits, and possibly even such matters as the arrangements for the aforementioned test.

FoxyJ wrote:Frankly I couldn't give a fig about RJD's feelings but if the testing would have helped those of his grandmother, then I just wish they could have been done when Judge Stark first agreed. That's not to say that the inquisitive amongst us wouldn't have been keen to see the results also.
Can someone -- *anyone* -- please provide me with proof that Stark himself refused to allow these tests? And where did Stark say he would allow them, allegedly outlining the requirements of such? Much appreciated in advance.
littlemissfitz wrote:I think they knew about the abuse that went on towards Ronnie & maybe felt guilty for not stepping in and stopping it before it got to this dreadful end.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that might suggest this theory has weight? I'm very interested in knowing how you arrived at this hypothesis, thanks.
FoxyJ wrote:... he 'scrumped' apples ...
Pardon me ... what is 'scrumping?' Sometimes I wish there was (UK)English-to-(US)English dictionary ;)

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Post by msmart112 » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:55 am

radiomixer wrote:Also, I recall Nonnewitz referring to being a sort of 'girlfriend' of Mrs. DeFeo, but don't recall her ever stating she was a very "close friend" to her.
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littlemissfitz
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Post by littlemissfitz » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:29 pm

littlemissfitz wrote:
I think they knew about the abuse that went on towards Ronnie & maybe felt guilty for not stepping in and stopping it before it got to this dreadful end.

Radiomixer wrote:
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that might suggest this theory has weight? I'm very interested in knowing how you arrived at this hypothesis, thanks.


Evidence?? Well...apart from actually speaking to the Brigante's (who are now dead) there is no way of getting 'evidence' that they knew that Big Ronnie was abusive. What a bizarre question! Most of us reach our own conclusions about what POSSIBLY went on partly from personal experience & partly common sense. Often there is no 'link' to written information - it's all about your own feelings about the case.

Most families that are reasonably close know what goes on within the family groups - they know each others ways & personalities. I think it's fair to assume that they knew Big Ronnie was a bully, was abusive at least to Louise (who often sported black eyes from what i've read) and to the children (i've read somewhere that Big Ronnie beat Ron Jr as a baby in front of people at a family get-together)...oh hang on - should I be providing a link to that information for you to check?....

Look, it's quite logical really. FROM MY EXPERIENCE (which I'm sorry, i can't post a link to but take it from me we have had it happen in my family) in some families that are being abused, other family members do know whats going on - they may either choose to ignore the fact that it is happening as they don't want to get involved or they may want to help but the person being abused refuses to leave or do anything about it. It happens often with battered wives.

Now I think its fairly safe to say that as the Brigantes MORE THAN LIKELY knew what was going on, a natural reaction after this terrible event was guilt at not getting involved earlier.
Therefore, although they knew Ronnie was guilty of murder (3 or 6) they felt they had to 'do best by him' out of a sense of failure on their part.
You want some REAL horror? Spend a day with my kids................

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Post by zzvampy » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:39 pm

Now I think its fairly safe to say that as the Brigantes MORE THAN LIKELY knew what was going on
Ronald Sr. was employed by his father-in-law, Mike Brigante. So, are you saying that you actually believe that Michael Brigante allowed his son-in-law to beat his daughter and grandchildren ( as you've 'read' ) yet kept him employed?

littlemissfitz
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Post by littlemissfitz » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:53 pm

Mmm... yeah I do actually. Family dynamics is a curious thing. There are a few things to consider.

A good, Italian, catholic family as theirs would have been very outwardly respectable. They were probably seen as upstanding members of the Italian/Catholic community, the Brigante's were wealthy & well known. Divorce or Separation would have been frowned upon and abusive behaviour such as this would probably have been tolerated to a certain degree. I imagine the women and children of the family would have known their 'place'.

Also, how much do we know of the supposed Mafia ties that this family had. Maybe Big Ronnie 'knew too much' of Brigante's dealings & vice versa (this is purely speculative I might add).

Beacuse of this, maybe Brigante couldnt fire Big Ronnie or cast him out of the family.

My gut feeling is there's more to the family set up here than meets the eye.
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littlemissfitz
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Post by littlemissfitz » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:08 pm

zzvampy wrote:
Now I think its fairly safe to say that as the Brigantes MORE THAN LIKELY knew what was going on
Ronald Sr. was employed by his father-in-law, Mike Brigante. So, are you saying that you actually believe that Michael Brigante allowed his son-in-law to beat his daughter and grandchildren ( as you've 'read' ) yet kept him employed?
Sorry, I cant paste the letters from Butch to his grandparents - I must learn!! but in it he states that 'You hated Big Ronnie & he hated you' so yes, I DOES look like they employed him despite not liking him.

You've confirmed your question from the letters you posted in another thread
You want some REAL horror? Spend a day with my kids................

zzvampy
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Post by zzvampy » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:43 pm

but in it he states that 'You hated Big Ronnie & he hated you' so yes, I DOES look like they employed him despite not liking him.
It's not always all that unusual for a Parent to dislike their son or daughter-in-law. The reasons may vary from family to family.

However, the problem I have with your reasoning is that you're not talking about a case of Michael Brigante simply "disliking" Ronald DeFeo Sr., ( and vice/versa ) you're saying that the man was aware that his daughter and grandchildren were being beaten.

There is a vast difference between the two of them disliking each other and an awareness ( Brigante's ) of physical and/or mental abuse. ( or lack thereof )

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Post by TigresMeow » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:14 pm

Even tho I am not a parent, I cannot understand how a parent would condone their child and/or grandchildren being beaten and not doing anything about it. JMO.
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