Antisocial Personality Disorder

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics

Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:42 pm

Antisocial Personality Disorder

Provided by Psychology Today

Definition of Antisocial Personality Disorder

Personality denotes characteristic ways of thinking, feeling, behaving, and reacting to the environment. A personality disorder is said to exist when a person chronically uses mechanisms of coping in an inappropriate, stereotyped, and maladaptive fashion. Personality disorders are enduring and persistent styles of behavior and thought, not atypical episodes.

[...]

Diagnostic criteria for antisocial personality include a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others and inability or unwillingness to conform to what are considered to be the norms of society.

The disorder involves a history of chronic antisocial behavior that begins before the age of 15 and continues into adulthood. The disorder is manifested by a pattern of irresponsible and antisocial behavior as indicated by academic failure, poor job performance, illegal activities, recklessness, and impulsive behavior. Symptoms may include dysphoria, an inability to tolerate boredom, feeling victimized, and a diminished capacity for intimacy.

Antisocial personality disorder, also known as psychopathic personality or sociopathic personality often brings a person into conflict with society as a consequence of a pattern of behavior that is amoral and unethical. Complications that might arise from having this disorder include: frequent imprisonment for unlawful behavior, alcoholism and drug abuse.

People with this disorder may appear charming on the surface, but they are likely to be aggressive and irritable as well as irresponsible across all areas. They may have numerous somatic complaints and possibly attempt suicide but due to their use of manipulative behavior, it is difficult to separate what is true and what is not.

Antisocial Personality Disorder Symptoms
~ Disregard for society's expectations and laws
~ Unlawful behavior
~ Violate rights of others (property, physical, sexual, legal,
emotional)
~ Physical aggression
~ Lack of stability in job, home life
~ Lack of remorse
~ Superficial charm and wit
~ Impulsiveness



Many people with antisocial personality disorder use AODs in a polydrug pattern involving alcohol, marijuana, heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine. The illegal drug culture corresponds with their view of the world as fast-paced and dramatic, which supports their need for a heightened self-image. Consequently, they may be involved in crime and other sensation-seeking, high-risk behavior.

[...]

Antisocial Personality Disorder Treatment

People affected with the disorder rarely seek therapy, but might be forced into it because of a "run in" with the law. So far, there has been little success in treating antisocial behavior and personality. [...] Homicide or suicide is highly common with people with this diagnosis.

Engagement

In engaging the patient with antisocial personality disorder, it is useful to join with the patient's worldview, which may include a need for control and a sense of entitlement. In this context, entitlement refers to people who believe their needs are more important than the needs of others. Entitlement may include rationalization of negative behavior (such as robbery or lying). People with antisocial personality disorder may evidence little empathy for their victims. If incarcerated, they may believe they should be released immediately. In an AOD treatment program, they may describe themselves as being unique and requiring special treatment.

Crisis Stabilization

[...]

They may become acutely paranoid. Containment in the form of a brief hospitalization may be indicated for patients experiencing acute paranoid reactions to avoid acting out against others. For less acute paranoid reactions, therapists should try to avoid cornering patients, disengage from any power struggle, offer lower stimulus levels, and create options, especially if those are supplied by the antisocial patient. During this phase, clarification without harsh confrontation is recommended.

When patients with antisocial personality disorder have crises, therapists should become cautious and careful. During crises, these patients may engage in dangerous physical behavior in order to avoid unpleasant situations or activities, and therapists should avoid angry confrontations.

http://www.medicinenet.com/antisocial_p ... rticle.htm



On the other hand, the field of criminology tends to treat APD as so synonymous, in fact, with criminal behavior that practically all convicted criminals (65-75%) have it, with criminologists often referring to it as a "wastebasket" category. [...] The main characteristic of it is a complete and utter disregard for the rights of others and the rules of society. They seldom show anxiety and don't feel guilt. Although many people would hope that there's an effective treatment, there's really no effective treatment for them other than locking them up in a secure facility with such rigid rules that they cannot talk their way out. A full list of APD traits would include:


List of Antisocial Personality Disorder Traits


Sense of entitlement; Unremorseful; Apathetic to others; Unconscionable behavior; Blameful of others; Manipulative and conning; Affectively cold; Disparate understanding; Socially irresponsible; Disregardful of obligations; Nonconforming to norms; Irresponsible

[...]

Clinical Symptoms for an Antisocial Personality Disorder Diagnosis


1. Failure to conform to social norms; 2. Deceitfulness, manipulativeness; 3. Impulsivity, failure to plan ahead; 4. Irritability, aggressiveness; 5. Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others; 6. Consistent irresponsibility; 7. Lack of remorse after having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person

[...]

Ongoing research is quite prolific into the factor or principal components analysis of APD characteristics. Most forensic experts believe there are 3-4 factors (groupings of symptoms). One factor involves symptoms that cluster around what might be called a Lack of Planning (promiscuous, irresponsible, impulsive traits and behavior). Another factor clusters around the notion of Disregard for Others. A third factor is clearly related to Adult Criminality. A fourth factor is clearly related to Juvenile Delinquency. Impulsivity appears to be a prototypical (core) feature, but it can take many forms. Definitions of impulsivity are numerous -- a tendency to act without reflection; dysfunctional information processing; a tendency for risk taking; sensation seeking; and an inability to sustain attention.

[...]

The incidence of APD is twice as high for inner-city residents than in small towns or rural areas, and five times higher in males than in females. [...] The fact is that most of the current prison population, white or black, shares the APD diagnosis. All it takes is a juvenile record, an adult offense career, aggressivity, impulsivity, a checkered work history, and/or lack of demonstrable repentance. These can be easily found in almost any prison inmate's dossier.

One of the things closely related to APD is the comorbidity of alcoholism and narcotic addiction. Some of the criteria for a substance abuse disorder are very similar: theft, hazardous behavior, failure to fulfill role functions in home, school, and work. A strong correlation exists between substance abuse and factor 2 (antisocial behaviors) of the psychopathy construct. APDs with a drug addiction have some serious substance abuse problems -- the kind that lead to death by overdose or accident within five years.

[...]

So what is a sociopath? You won't find criteria in the DSM IV or official psychiatric nomenclature, but the construct refers to the largest subgroup of APDs. Most are males, but an increasing number are female. They have otherwise normal temperaments (as opposed to psychopaths who have abnormal temperaments). Some are aggressive, fearless sensation seekers, and others are Machiavellian manipulators. A Machiavellian is a personality type who is a cross between an antisocial personality and a narcissist, and someone who also has an extremely high sense of entitlement. The one thing that all sociopaths have in common is that they are "too much" to handle for their parents or anyone else. It's common to refer to them as unsocialized, but the dyssocial sociopath does socialize to the mores and values of a dyssocial outgroup, like a gang.

[...]

ALIENATED SOCIOPATHS have never developed the ability to love, empathize, or affiliate in real life with another person. They will show more emotion toward their pet or a personal artifact than toward a person. [...] Dating and marriage relationships will be very barren and empty. They won't get along with the neighbors. They live in a shell. They have a cold, callous attitude toward human suffering or any social problem in the society they live in. They just don't care because it's outside their range of empathy. Most will believe they are justified in this because they feel they were cheated in some way themselves by society, and a few will be more than happy to rant and rave about it to anyone who listens. They are chronic complainers, and underneath it all, they would like to see nothing better than all of society destroyed.

DETAILED ANALYSIS OF THE PSYCHOPATH

Psychopaths cannot be understood in terms of antisocial rearing or development. They are simply morally depraved individuals who represent the "monsters" in our society. They are unstoppable and untreatable predators whose violence is planned, purposeful and emotionless. The violence continues until it reaches a plateau at age 50 or so, then tapers off. Their emotionlessness reflects a detached, fearless, and possibly dissociated state, revealing a lower autonomic nervous system and lack of anxiety. It's difficult to say what motivates them - control and dominance possibly - since their life history will usually show no bonds with others nor much rhyme to their reason (other than the planning of violence). They tend to operate with a grandiose demeanor, an attitude of entitlement, an insatiable appetite, and a tendency toward sadism. Fearlessness is probably the prototypical (core) characteristic (the low-fear hypothesis). It's helpful to think of them as high-speed vehicles with ineffective brakes. Certain organic (brain) disorders and hormonal imbalances mimic the state of mind of a psychopath.

[A couple of the subclasses]:

CHARISMATIC PSYCHOPATHS are charming, attractive liars. They are usually gifted at some talent or another, and they use it to their advantage in manipulating others. They are usually fast-talkers, and possess an almost demonic ability to persuade others out of everything they own, even their lives. Leaders of religious sects or cults, for example, might be psychopaths if they lead their followers to their deaths. This subtype often comes to believe in their own fictions. [...]

PRIMARY PSYCHOPATHS do not respond to punishment, apprehension, stress, or disapproval. They seem to be able to inhibit their antisocial impulses most of the time, not because of conscience, but because it suits their purpose at the time. Words do not seem to have the same meaning for them as they do for us. In fact, it's unclear if they even grasp the meaning of their own words, a condition that Cleckley called "semantic aphasia." They don't follow any life plan, and it seems as if they are incapable of experiencing any genuine emotion.

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:43 pm

TIA wrote:A sociopath can come from a pretty normal family.

I think one of the reasons people are prepared to accept RDJ's characterisation of his family is because it feels so counterintuitive that someone with a personality that distorted might not have come from a deeply dysfunctional family.

But it could well be that whatever dysfunction was there existed primarily because of the stress having a sociopathic child put the family under.
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:44 pm

shattered thoughts wrote:So are you posting this to say RJD has a mental disability?

Which is the crux of it all?

In this latest account (from the A&E Interview) you can clearly see this mental instability, still present today... Probably progressed untreated in prison. He speaks intelligently, but rambled most of the time. His thoughts are not clear, he looks physically sick and even a laymen could see he is sick mentally.

Dr. Hoge also diagnosed this at the end of this interview. He did speak of this anti-social behaviour and the chronic lies as part of his disease...So, is it fair to say, in light of this, he truly "lost it" this fateful night? and has never returned to reality as we know it? I mean after all, how much abuse can one endure. Yes, I know you don't believe there was abuse, I do! Coming from Italian decent myself, my grandfather, my father were all abusive to their children. It's not far fetched as many think...everything is not always black and white, there are some grey areas! :?

I feel if allegedly, a confession was beaten out of a person, if evidence supressed, if evidence was tainted, if the attorney did not act properly, if the judge acted unfairly, all this should be addressed. When is it ever right to break the law in the name of upholding it! (SCPD is under scrutiny this very day. Marty Tankleff (sp) has shown this to be true! He too is convicted of the murder of his parents, yet he maintains his innocence)

By all accounts I've read, I can see clearly a coverup had happened, whether it be to save face for the DeFeo family or just take some punk arse kid off the streets for the rest of his natural life, it remains clear RJD will never see the light of a free day...

If and this is a big if, it can be proven others were involved, by all means they too should be held accountable (although I do not believe any are alive)...

even still, it will never change the fact that RJD will never be a free man!
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:45 pm

TIA wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:So are you posting this to say RJD has a mental disability?


He has been diagnosed with an extreme personality disorder. That's very different from other psychiatric conditions such as deppression.

So, is it fair to say, in light of this, he truly "lost it" this fateful night? and has never returned to reality as we know it?


No.

It's not something that's episodic. It's lifelong and distorts someone's entire personality. He was displaying violent behaviour from at least his teens, and his parents tried to get him help, both from the family doctor and a psychiatrist. I'm not sure what treatment (if any) he received as a result of that, but as the information posted above explains, it's quite possible there is nothing they could have done to help him. They did try.
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:45 pm

shattered thoughts wrote:
TIA wrote:He was displaying violent behaviour from at least his teens, and his parents tried to get him help, both from the family doctor and a psychiatrist. I'm not sure what treatment (if any) he received as a result of that, but as the information posted above explains, it's quite possible there is nothing they could have done to help him. They did try


Funny, any accounts I've read Mr. DeFeo would not allow his family to be seen by any mental health experts. I read he once took RJD by his arm and stormed out of the drs. office...No treatments ever...
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:46 pm

TIA wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:Funny, any accounts I've read Mr. DeFeo would not allow his family to be seen by any mental health experts. I read he once took RJD by his arm and stormed out of the drs. office...No treatments ever...


Right. Except RDJ confirmed they did try and get him help. But that doesn't fit the story he's telling now, does it? It won't gain your empathy, the very thing he doesn't have, and what he exploits in others to get support.

That's what sociopaths do.

The psychiatrist who interviewed RDJ last year explained how he reeled out different stories, each designed to gain the sympathy of the person listening. If one doesn't work, another might:

I was addicted to drugs - pity me
My father was abusive - pity me
The police beat me - pity me
Everyone I've ever met lied about me - pity me

Just don't think about his victims. And don't for a moment consider that he might lie about who they were in order shift your pity from them, to him.

Sociopath.
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:47 pm

shattered thoughts wrote:
TIA wrote:He has been diagnosed with an extreme personality disorder. That's very different from other psychiatric conditions such as deppression.


Exactly!...do you not see this as a mental problem?

Depression is quite different, this can be treated with medication!... there is no treatments for extreme personality disorder...

Also don't you think, if there was abuse, the abuse would have also contributed to this behavior....if one lives in violence he will become violent...!
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:48 pm

shattered thoughts wrote:
TIA wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:Funny, any accounts I've read Mr. DeFeo would not allow his family to be seen by any mental health experts. I read he once took RJD by his arm and stormed out of the drs. office...No treatments ever...


Right. Except RDJ confirmed they did try and get him help. But that doesn't fit the story he's telling now, does it? It won't gain your empathy, the very thing he doesn't have, and what he exploits in others to get support.

That's what sociopaths do.

The psychiatrist who interviewed RDJ last year explained how he reeled out different stories, each designed to gain the sympathy of the person listening. If one doesn't work, another might:

I was addicted to drugs - pity me
My father was abusive - pity me
The police beat me - pity me
Everyone I've ever met lied about me - pity me

Just don't think about his victims. And don't for a moment consider that he might lie about who they were in order shift your pity from them, to him.

Sociopath.


Because he his mentally unstable!..

Don't tell me I don't think about the victims.

None should have been killed in the way they were. None....even if he only killed the allegedly abusive father there is always another way out! I suppose if only the father was murdered, then you can see it differently. What he did was wrong, no other way to put it, I'm trying to see the "reason" behind the murders and how it escalated to the point it did...being abused myself, I know the ramifications it could bring. I lost it once, due to violence in my home...so to me, IMO, it's not far fetched that abuse could lead to murder!

Which is my point exactly. He does not think rationally...placing blame on others is very irrational, but very rational in his minds view....don't you see it! He was and still is very mentally sick! Which only progressed in prison since there is still no treatment being received....
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:48 pm

TIA wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:
Exactly!...do you not see this as a mental problem?


As a psychiatric condition? Absolutely. It means he hasn't got the ability to empathise, or feel guilt at the terrible things he's done.

It doesn't affect his ability to discern right from wrong. It does affect his ability to care. To find that RDJ was innocent on the grounds of insanity, he would have to not understand what he did. He does.


Depression is quite different, this can be treated with medication!... there is no treatments for extreme personality disorder...


That's exactly what I was saying.
This personality disorder is worlds away from what most people think of as mental illness, such as deppression.


Also don't you think, if there was abuse, the abuse would have also contributed to this behavior....if one lives in violence he will become violent...!


Actually, not everyone who lives with a violent abuser will become violent. But that's not the point.

RDJ wants people to believe he was the victim of violence from his father, so they will see the murder of his father as less eggregious, and sympathise with RDJ. But that doesn't make it true.
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:49 pm

shattered thoughts wrote:
TIA wrote:Actually, not everyone who lives with a violent abuser will become violent. But that's not the point.


That is the point!...not everyone, but some!

If you take an already fragile mind, unstable mind, coupled with drug/alcohol abuse, abuse suffered as a child/teen/adult your mind can "snap"...what is one's breaking point.

You and I may not resort to this, but someone who is unstable can....I don't say this to lessen what he's done...It was a horrific, heinous massacre, fueled by mental instability, drug/alcohol abuse and physical abuse....remember, not everything is black and white, it's the grey areas that need to be explored.... :?
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:50 pm

TIA wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:
Because he his mentally unstable!..


Unstable? I'm not sure that's the term I'd use. That would suggest to me that at some points he doesn't have the personality he has. His personality disorder is stable in that it doesn't come and go.

But someone who doesn't feel guilt, can only mimic empathy, their behaviour might be unstable.


Don't tell me I don't think about the victims.


I was saying that he doesn't want you to think of the victims as victims, not that you don't personally think of them. He wants you to see them as people who victimised him.

None should have been killed in the way they were. None....even if he only killed the allegedly abusive father there is always another way out! I suppose if only the father was murdered, then you can see it differently. What he did was wrong, no other way to put it, I'm trying to see the "reason" behind the murders and how it escalated to the point it did...being abused myself, I know the ramifications it could bring. I lost it once, due to violence in my home...so to me, IMO, it's not far fetched that abuse could lead to murder!


Eaxctly. You're empathising with him because you know the toll abuse takes. That he wiped out his whole family should be a clue that he didn't snap under the abuse.


Which is my point exactly. He does not think rationally...placing blame on others is very irrational, but very rational in his minds view....don't you see it! He was and still is very mentally sick! Which only progressed in prison since there is still no treatment being received....


What treatment?

He has a personality disorder, but not one that takes away his ability to discern right from wrong, which is why he's still held accountable for his actions.

I'm not sure why you think he's deteriorated in prison.
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:51 pm

TIA wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:
TIA wrote:Actually, not everyone who lives with a violent abuser will become violent. But that's not the point.


That is the point!...not everyone, but some!

If you take an already fragile mind, unstable mind, coupled with drug/alcohol abuse, abuse suffered as a child/teen/adult your mind can "snap"...what is one's breaking point.


He killed his whole family. In their beds.

You and I may not resort to this, but someone who is unstable can....I don't say this to lessen what he's done...It was a horrific, heinous massacre, fueled by mental instability, drug/alcohol abuse and physical abuse....remember, not everything is black and white, it's the grey areas that need to be explored.... :?


Of course not everything's black and white. That's what RDJ wants people to believe. That he killed because he was abused.

But he didn't just kill his father.
He killed his mother.
He killed his brothers and sisters.
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:51 pm

shattered thoughts wrote:
TIA wrote:Eaxctly. You're empathising with him because you know the toll abuse takes. That he wiped out his whole family should be a clue that he didn't snap under the abuse.


Well, here is where we agree to disagree!... :? Wiping out his whole family should be a clue of "snapping"...what sane person would do this?
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:52 pm

TIA wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:Well, here is where we agree to disagree!... :? Wiping out his whole family should be a clue of "snapping"...what sane person would do this?


A person who has no psychiatric conditon? No, I don't think that's likely either.

A person who has been abused, and snapped? They might, under some circumstances, kill their abuser.

So who would kill children lying in their beds in the way RDJ did?

Someone who doesn't feel empathy might.

Someone who doesn't feel guilt might.

A sociopath.

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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:52 pm

shattered thoughts wrote:Just last year, I was following the Cody Posey case. Granted this was a 16 y/o but he was abused mentally/physically and emotionally by his father. He killed his father, stepmom/stepsis and he buried the bodies. The abuse factor was his defense and the jury found this to be so, since he was convicted as a juvenile (he could have been sentenced as an adult) and due to the abuse suffered will serve 7 years and be free, he took innocent lives too...abuse can lead to murder...

So he killed the abuser (his father) and killed the stepmom/sis so that there would be no witnesses to the murder of dad...sounds eerily similar to the DeFeo case...only the age difference and drug/alcohol factors were missing with Posey...

Maybe I can see the other side of the coin since I too was a product of abuse...

I know killilng those innocent children is a huge factor in your vengance with RJD, but what if (and granted it's a big if) he is telling the truth that someone else was responsible for the children's murder, shouldn't they be held responsible?

Amidst all his ever changing stories, the lies told, he has always maintained (at least where I read) he did not kill the children, if it can be proven that someone else did indeed do this horrible act, wouldn't you want justice for the one who got away?

I also read where the PI Herman Race found that Dawn may have played a part in the murders, he was abruptly dismissed of his services from Michael Brigante... :? sounds a little fishy to me!
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:53 pm

TIA wrote:Yep, you're right. He seems to have killed his innocent step-sister, and this does seem to have been triggered by the abuse he suffered:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12665680/


I hadn't come across this case. It's very disturbing, not least because Cody was 14. It's much harder to know whether someone so young has a personality disorder.

The defence called three dozen witnesses who testified to the abuse.

Cody was 14, he suffered from post traumatic stress disorder, and (they seem to think) psychopathy.

A fourteen year old cannot, I think, be treated or tried as an adult. But this is something Cody said which gives me hope for him:

"It was the wrong thing to do."

He said he regretted it.

Contrast this to Ronald Defeo Jr:

"I lost my temper. That isn't murder."

Because Cody was a child, and is still very young, and because of the evidence of abuse in his case, he's being given another chance. I hope they can help him. His description of sexual abuse included his father and his stepmother. If that was the case, then the one innocent person he killed was his step-sister.

If he has developed a full blown personality disorder along the lines of Defeo then (currently) there may be pretty much nothing they can do to help him. I hope that isn't the case.

I think you should take a look at the differences between Defeo and Cody's descriptions of abuse. Look at the difference in their behaviour and their attitudes towards the people they killed. The difference between taking responsibility for what they did, and:

"I didn?t care who they blamed as long as it wasn?t me. I mean, that?s the bottom line. I did not care. I didn?t care then and I don?t care now.?


The difference between stacking lie after lie in an attempt to manipulate others, and telling the truth.

Cody is not Defeo.

But you proved your point. :D


Something that baffles me is your idea I want vengeance over Defeo. I'm not sure why you think that. I don't believe his latest lies, but I don't think there's much point in doing anything to punish him other than keep him away from the rest of society, and that's more to keep the rest of society safe than anything else. If you punish him, he won't really connect that with what he's done. Kind of makes it pointless.

He has not always maintained he didn't kill the children. He just wants the world to forget the times he admitted it.

And while Defeo may have hoped that he could implicate his sister with powder marks on her nightdress, that doesn't prove Dawn shot a firearm. I know that's what keeps being put forward by some people, but it can't and doesn't prove Dawn was anything but a murder victim.

Do you think he told the truth when he told the police, Hanz Holzer, and the entire court he murdered his family?
Do you think he told the truth when he told a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Mommy did it?
Do you think he told the truth when he said Dawn and friends did it?
When he comes out with his next story, will you believe him when he says his current wife made him lie? Because that's how he gets out of the last version. Someone else made him lie. Everyone else he's ever met, pretty much, lies about him and forces him to lie.

How about justice for his victims? I think that starts by trying to find out who they really were, independently of the way RDJ wants them to be seen.

I said before it's possible Defeo Senior was abusive. But I think it would be wrong to view him that way because the man who murdered him said so. And if he was, that may not have been the reason Defeo killed him.

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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:54 pm

msmart112 wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:Amidst all his ever changing stories, the lies told, he has always maintained (at least where I read) he did not kill the children, if it can be proven that someone else did indeed do this horrible act, wouldn't you want justice for the one who got away?


How could it ever be proven that someone got away? Not even Ronnie would know (providing that someone did actually get away). Near the end of the A&E documentary, Ronnie states?

?You, you, you, you, and everybody else is scared. And you know what you?re all afraid of? You know I did this with other people.?

The interviewer replies?

?But your explanation is that the other person was Dawn??

To which Ronnie answers?

?I wasn?t there, and you?re never going to get me to change that.?

shattered thoughts wrote:I also read where the PI Herman Race found that Dawn may have played a part in the murders, he was abruptly dismissed of his services from Michael Brigante... :? sounds a little fishy to me!


This came from Geraldine Gates?fishy indeed!
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:54 pm

shattered thoughts wrote:
TIA wrote:But you proved your point. :D



Thank you Tia, that's all I wanted. To show you how abuse can lead to murder!
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:55 pm

msmart112 wrote:
TIA wrote:He has not always maintained he didn't kill the children. He just wants the world to forget the times he admitted it.


Nor has Ronnie always maintained that Dawn was involved.

Once again...excellent post TIA! Image
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radiomixer
Billy's Next Ex-Wife
 
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Postby radiomixer » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:55 pm

TIA wrote:
shattered thoughts wrote:Thank you Tia, that's all I wanted. To show you how abuse can lead to murder!


I never denied that it could. I don't think it's realistic in this case.

What you showed was that someone might kill an innocent person along with their abuser. I hadn't come across a case like that before. And that case is very different from the Defeo one. But that's what I was saying you proved your point on :D.
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radiomixer
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Postby Brendan72 » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:02 pm

Let's not forget that in addition to the abovementioned criteria for a person with Antisocial Personality Disorder, we can throw in the fact that Butch DeFeo used drugs that have been known to cause side effects. Side effects such as paranoia, violent outbursts brought on by psychotic state as the result of excessive drug usage et al. There are alot of medical journals dealing with case studies on this. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to search the reputable ones online, starting off with a simple Google search.
- Brendan72

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin. Comedian. (1937-2008)
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